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"The Black Swan In Plain Sight" - Debt Out The Wazoo

Area51

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#41
I dunno, maybe somewhere between $500 and $1000/year to start.
....and I realize that the people we currently have in DC would never go for something like this, because it would effectively bind their hands from doing anything but the most important of government tasks.
As I surmised, you're just babbling out of your ass and haven't put an ounce of rational thought into your ridiculous comments.

If every man, woman and child in America paid $1000 in taxes that'd amount to $323 BILLION in total tax revenue for the government.

Do you have even the slightest clue of how childishly naive that is?

To give you a hint as to the level of your absurdity, the US paid $240 BILLION just to service the government debt last year.

That would leave $83 BILLION remaining for government expenditures. To put that into perspective, it'd be about 2% of the current budget.

WTF kind of shitstorm would that be with 98% of public services eliminated?

I'm cringing at how asinine your comments have become.
 

Cigarlover

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#42
Here's a list of budgets by country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget

As I surmised, you're just babbling out of your ass and haven't put an ounce of rational thought into your ridiculous comments.
I'm cringing at how asinine your comments have become.
You accuse everyone else of that which you are guilty of. You must be a democrat. LOL.
If you take the current US expenditures and divide that by the number of working Americans it works out to about 59,000 per person. So, obviously taxes are raised from more than just individuals.
What you did was take Joe's comment of 500-1000 per person and assumed that was the only money coming into the gov coffers.
I would suggest you put some rational thought into your comments and stop making these dumb arguments until you do. The rest of us are looking at you like your in high school or something.
 

Spectrism

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#43
Most of the federal funding should come from tariffs. It would do 2 things.... force government into a leaner mindset, and change the way government thinks it is superior to the citizens, able to demand fruits of labor.

It would also make the border security a greater issue. Protecting the borders and ensuring imported goods are not poison or counterfeit is an important role of the government. A tariff would also encourage companies to maintain a manufacturing force here. This would help re-balance this hollowed-out economy.
 

Joe King

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#44
As I surmised, you're just babbling out of your ass and haven't put an ounce of rational thought into your ridiculous comments.

If every man, woman and child in America paid $1000 in taxes that'd amount to $323 BILLION in total tax revenue for the government.

Do you have even the slightest clue of how childishly naive that is?
I'd say that it's you who is the ass babbling naive child without a clue.




To give you a hint as to the level of your absurdity, the US paid $240 BILLION just to service the government debt last year.

That would leave $83 BILLION remaining for government expenditures. To put that into perspective, it'd be about 2% of the current budget.

WTF kind of shitstorm would that be with 98% of public services eliminated?
Cigarlover is light years ahead of you. Try to catch up? If you can.


You accuse everyone else of that which you are guilty of. You must be a democrat. LOL.
If you take the current US expenditures and divide that by the number of working Americans it works out to about 59,000 per person. So, obviously taxes are raised from more than just individuals.
What you did was take Joe's comment of 500-1000 per person and assumed that was the only money coming into the gov coffers.
I would suggest you put some rational thought into your comments and stop making these dumb arguments until you do. The rest of us are looking at you like your in high school or something.
High school? I was gonna say middle school, at best.


Edited to add: The only reason DC needs as much money as it currently does, is because those running it for the past 100+ years want(ed) to do everything but what they are supposed to be doing. An educated read of the Constitution shows that it doesn't permit most of what they do, so it stands to reason that if they only did what the Constitution specifically allows for, there's no need for trillion$ in taxe$ of any kind.
 
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Area51

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#45
Here's a list of budgets by country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget





You accuse everyone else of that which you are guilty of. You must be a democrat. LOL.
If you take the current US expenditures and divide that by the number of working Americans it works out to about 59,000 per person. So, obviously taxes are raised from more than just individuals.
What you did was take Joe's comment of 500-1000 per person and assumed that was the only money coming into the gov coffers.
I would suggest you put some rational thought into your comments and stop making these dumb arguments until you do. The rest of us are looking at you like your in high school or something.

Any idea what percentage of tax dollars are from corporate taxes?

Educate yourself, my friend. It's nowhere close to what you're trying to imply.
 

Area51

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#46
Most of the federal funding should come from tariffs. It would do 2 things.... force government into a leaner mindset, and change the way government thinks it is superior to the citizens, able to demand fruits of labor.

It would also make the border security a greater issue. Protecting the borders and ensuring imported goods are not poison or counterfeit is an important role of the government. A tariff would also encourage companies to maintain a manufacturing force here. This would help re-balance this hollowed-out economy.
Absolutely could not agree more about the need to raise tariffs.

The tax revenue generated from it would be secondary to the jobs that would be brought back from third world sweatshops.
 

Joe King

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#47
Any idea what percentage of tax dollars are from corporate taxes?
Any percent is too damn much. Corporate taxes are another way to tax people without them realizing they are being taxed. Every penny of corporate taxes are added into the cost of production and passed on to someone else to actually pay. Corporations don't pay any of it.
 

Area51

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#48
Any percent is too damn much. Corporate taxes are another way to tax people without them realizing they are being taxed. Every penny of corporate taxes are added into the cost of production and passed on to someone else to actually pay. Corporations don't pay any of it.

You really do believe everything you're told, don't you?

Corporate taxes have been steadily reduced since the 1950s. Has that resulted in more jobs? No. Has that resulted in higher wages? No. Has that resulted in lower prices? No.

Any reduction in corporate taxes ends up in the pockets of the shareholders - - ie the wealthy elites who manipulate the financial systems to their advantage.
 

Joe King

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#49
You really do believe everything you're told, don't you?

Corporate taxes have been steadily reduced since the 1950s. Has that resulted in more jobs? No. Has that resulted in higher wages? No. Has that resulted in lower prices? No.

Any reduction in corporate taxes ends up in the pockets of the shareholders - - ie the wealthy elites who manipulate the financial systems to their advantage.
So by your "logic", no company is ever interested in being able to beat their competitions price, offer better wages to retain good employees, or offer a higher quality product?

Every company I've ever worked for was always lookin' for ways to do all those things.
...and how can you possibly know we wouldn't have fewer jobs and lower pay today, had taxes not already been cut in the past? It's impossible to know what would have happened had rates stayed higher. Are you only going by what you've been told? Sure seems so, as you parrot the liberals on this topic and God knows they haven't researched it. All they want is more of other peoples money.


All I'm saying is that any taxes imposed on a fictious entity such as a corporation must necessarily be added into the cost of production. Which means the company gets to decide how to pass that cost along. Same as they would with the electric bill and every other cost of doing business. Are you trying to say that companies can ONLY pass that cost savings of lower taxes in the form of lower dividends to the stockholders? If so, you couldn't be more wrong.
 

Area51

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#50
So by your "logic", no company is ever interested in being able to beat their competitions price, offer better wages to retain good employees, or offer a higher quality product?

Every company I've ever worked for was always lookin' for ways to do all those things.
...and how can you possibly know we wouldn't have fewer jobs and lower pay today, had taxes not already been cut in the past? It's impossible to know what would have happened had rates stayed higher. Are you only going by what you've been told? Sure seems so, as you parrot the liberals on this topic and God knows they haven't researched it. All they want is more of other peoples money.


All I'm saying is that any taxes imposed on a fictious entity such as a corporation must necessarily be added into the cost of production. Which means the company gets to decide how to pass that cost along. Same as they would with the electric bill and every other cost of doing business. Are you trying to say that companies can ONLY pass that cost savings of lower taxes in the form of lower dividends to the stockholders? If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

That must be why hundreds of thousands of jobs have been outsourced to Mexico and China - - because corporations want to "offer better wages".

And why so many things are made from plastic , pressed cardboard or high fructose corn syrup - - because corporations want to "offer a higher quality product".

Thanks for the amusement. Now carry on with your trolling.
 

Joe King

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#52
That must be why hundreds of thousands of jobs have been outsourced to Mexico and China - - because corporations want to "offer better wages".

And why so many things are made from plastic , pressed cardboard or high fructose corn syrup - - because corporations want to "offer a higher quality product".
All you are describing is but two other ways corporations can use to control their cost of production. High taxes here is one of the things that increases the cost of production.

Anytime you artificially raise the cost of doing something here, less of it will be done here. This is basic econ. As in 101. Try to catch up.







Thanks for the amusement. Now carry on with your trolling.
I'm actually quite amused that you fail to grasp basic facts about the economy. Or are you trolling me?
 

Area51

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#53
All you are describing is but two other ways corporations can use to control their cost of production. High taxes here is one of the things that increases the cost of production.

Anytime you artificially raise the cost of doing something here, less of it will be done here. This is basic econ. As in 101. Try to catch up.


I'm actually quite amused that you fail to grasp basic facts about the economy. Or are you trolling me?
Over the past half century in America corporate taxes have been steadily reduced, jobs have been outsourced, wages have stagnated and the overall standard of living has decreased dramatically.

Those are indisputable facts, my friend. But if you want to try and argue otherwise, feel free to explain how the US economy is booming and make a fool of yourself with laughably misinformed comments - - again.

Your earlier proclamation that a regressive tax is "the only truly fair way" showed just how limited your understanding of economics is.
 

Joe King

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#54
Over the past half century in America corporate taxes have been steadily reduced, jobs have been outsourced, wages have stagnated and the overall standard of living has decreased dramatically.

Those are indisputable facts, my friend.
Just imagine how much worse it would be had taxes stayed high.


Again, why can you not see the indisputable fact that taxes imposed simply become part of the overall cost of doing business? How can they not? It's no different than an electric bill a company gets. The cost of it has to be included in their business model. Same as taxes would. Or the cost of labor, or anything else they spend money on.

If you think taxes don't increase the cost of business, where do you think the money for it come from? The tooth fairy?
 

Area51

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#55
Just imagine how much worse it would be had taxes stayed high.


Again, why can you not see the indisputable fact that taxes imposed simply become part of the overall cost of doing business? How can they not? It's no different than an electric bill a company gets. The cost of it has to be included in their business model. Same as taxes would. Or the cost of labor, or anything else they spend money on.

If you think taxes don't increase the cost of business, where do you think the money for it come from? The tooth fairy?

Please tell me you're just trolling. You're not honestly not that dense to make comments like that are you?

Comparing corporate taxes to an electricy bill is a totally asinine comparison. Educate yourself on what a fixed cost is, my friend.

No company tacks 35% onto their prices to offset the corporate tax rate. If they did, there would be a corresponding price drop of 15% on everything when the Washington braintrust reduces the tax rate down to 20%. Think that's going to happen? Of course not.
 

Joe King

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#56
Please tell me you're just trolling. You're not honestly not that dense to make comments like that are you?
So where do you think the money for taxes comes from if no company accounts for it in the cost of doing business?

How are taxes not the same as any other cost of production? You keep skipping over that part. Does the tooth fairy bring that money for them to pay their taxes, or what? Where does it come from?


If your taxes go up and your income stays the same, how do you make adjustments for it? Do you have a printing press in your basement, or do you readjust other costs in your life to account for your higher tax bill?
 

Ebie

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#57
Japan is 2.8 times worse than the USA in terms of debt to GDP. And it is doing fine far from implosion.
If we are the same as Japan, that, means if our debt grows 2.8 times what it is now, we will still be OK.
 

Joe King

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#58
Japan is 2.8 times worse than the USA in terms of debt to GDP. And it is doing fine far from implosion.
If we are the same as Japan, that, means if our debt grows 2.8 times what it is now, we will still be OK.
As long as the interest payments are met, there is no real limit to how much debt there can be.

The real question is, do you actually think it would be a good thing to increase the public debt to that level?
 

Area51

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#59
How are taxes not the same as any other cost of production? You keep skipping over that part.
You don't have much business experience, do you?

The electric bill has to be paid whether the company makes money or loses money. Taxes get paid only when there's a profit.

A company with $1 BILLION in pre tax earnings will just have to find a way to get by and survive on $650 MILLION in after tax profit.
 

Joe King

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#60
The electric bill has to be paid whether the company makes money or loses money. Taxes get paid only when there's a profit.

A company with $1 BILLION in pre tax earnings will just have to find a way to get by and survive on $650 MILLION in after tax profit.
They still take the cost of taxes into account. What if $650b isn't enough to make it worth their while? I'll tell ya what they do, they find ways to increase production without hiring more people, or they adjust the price of their product, or they decide to make their product from cheaper materials, or move the factory to Mexico and/or any other thing they can think of to offset the cost of the taxes if they think they are too high.


Edited to add: ...and every dollar of that $1b came from their customers. That means in order to have $650b left over they must charge an extra $350b in order to have it to be able to pay it.
Ie: if it wasn't for the taxes their products could sell for $350b less than they do.
 
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solarion

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#62
Sure. The Fed could hold a bond auction where nobody wants to buy their crap. I suspect, as others have mentioned, the Fed would simply use third parties to buy their own debt via proxy...as some speculated happened with the mysterious Belgian buyer.

I frankly find it astonishing that so many zero zone countries are able to dump their toxic debt at zero or even negative rates...like what kind of an idiot makes a loan where they don't even get the principle back...never mind any interest. Combined with inflation, that seems like such a huge loser even if you're not planning to hold a note to maturity. No thank you.
 

Joe King

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#63
A company with $1 BILLION in pre tax earnings will just have to find a way to get by and survive on $650 MILLION in after tax profit.
...and every dollar of that $1b came from their customers. That means in order to have $650b left over they must charge an extra $350b in order to have it to be able to pay it.
Ie: if it wasn't for the taxes their products could sell for $350b less than they do.

@Area51 , if the $350b in taxes comes from profit, where did the profit come from? Seeing as you don't seem to know where it comes from, I'll tell you. It comes from their customers. Every bit of the $350b in taxes had to be included in the prices paid for the product or services. How can you possibly believe it wasn't?
....and as I already pointed out, and you ignored, their prices could be cheaper by that same $350b. Or they could raise wages. Or build a new factory and hire even more people. Instead, you want to pay higher prices in order to give your politicians more money to waste. All the time believing that high corp taxes saves you money. lol lol lol
 

Zed

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#64
The USA has a debt base monetary system. Every dollar issued is backed by US government debt. If the debt is paid down there is no money. This is the US system, you can argue that it needs to change... no small task, but while it is what it is the debt will most assuredly grow most of the time.

It is certainly doomed in time, as the economy will eventually not be able to keep up with interest payments. I would argue that a better system could be built BUT for now supply of money AKA public debt needs to grow or the credit system implodes.

The end running of the system involves the Fed buying its own debt AKA direct monitisation, this just turns the model into a circle jerk paper chase that means you owe what you print to yourself. It is happening and that's the same as Zimbabwe printing, but for some reason that's being allowed by the vested interest in the market. The thing that matters to us is when the market's vested interests start to think acknowledging the fundamental reality is in thier best interest.

The debt will be what it is until this system breaks..... JMO.