• Same story, different day...........year ie more of the same fiat floods the world
  • There are no markets
  • "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding high finance, politics, constructionist Constitution, and mental masturbation of all types"

The Leaning Tower of San Francisco

Bottom Feeder

Hypophthalmichthys molitrix
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
3,536
Likes
5,720
Location
Seattle
#1
58 stories - 645 feet
opened in 2009
sunk 17 inches
tilted 14 inches to the NW

The Millennium Tower. Fifty-eight stories of opulence, it opened in 2009 to great acclaim, then the tallest residential building west of the Mississippi. Though priced in the millions, the inventory of posh apartments moved quickly. Yet for all its curb appeal, the building has, quite literally, one fundamental problem: it's sinking into mud and tilting toward its neighbors.

Eight years ago, Jerry and Pat Dodson paid $2.1 million dollars for a two-bedroom and planned to live out their retirement enjoying the sweeping view from the 42nd floor. One feature the Dodson's hadn't counted on is the dozens of stress gauges dot the walls of the Millennium Tower's basement. They measure, in millimeters, the slow growth of cracks along the columns that rise up from the building's foundation. These cracks are one of the only visual clues that there's anything profoundly wrong here.

Cracks.jpg

Engineers have tracked sinking here since the day the foundation was poured in 2006. Nothing unusual about that. Here's what is unusual: their data shows the Millennium Tower sinking -- 17 inches so far -- and tilting 14 inches to the northwest.

What lies beneath the surface at 301 Mission Street is critical to the story. It fell to Millennium's geotechnical engineers to analyze the ground below and design an appropriate foundation. They went with a foundation driven 80 feet deep into a layer of dense sand. And the city approved the plan. But what is under the ground here at the surface is rubble from the 1906 earthquake, brick and sand and debris.You have to go 200 feet below the Millennium Tower, through layers of history in the ground -- below landfill from the time of the gold rush, sand, mud and clay -- to reach solid rock or bedrock. The fact that the tower's foundation isn't anchored in bedrock -- well, that's a problem. For a big, heavy building, those foundations have to go deeper. For a building like this, they have to go to bedrock. Otherwise, the structure will sink into less sturdy layers of sand and mud. And because it doesn't sink or settle uniformly, you get tilting.

Bedrock. There may be no avoiding it. The parties are in mediation debating just how to drill down to bedrock under an existing skyscraper with a thousand people living upstairs. And then, there's the indelicate question: who pays for all this?

CBSnews

What's the deal with California? Do all the engineers that can't find work anywhere else gravitate there? Must be the same bunch that built the USA's largest earthen dam; the Oroville Dam . Or is just an indication of the engineers we're turning out now days?

Buncha dimwhits
BF
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
20,186
Likes
21,507
#2
I hope it collapses! This is what you get when you think you're better than everyone else and ignore the rest of the country! No one outside of California cares (we....don't....care!!!) one bit if the whole state simply broke off and slipped beneath the Pacific.
 

<SLV>

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,116
Likes
3,616
#3
Greed. Blame it on the developers not the engineers. I am an engineer, and I can assure you that often I am completely ignored. Engineers always want to design in a safety factor to guarantee adequate performance. Business cases and pressure from the sales group and product management drive back that safety factor. Anything they can do to lower cost and maximize profit margin.
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,769
#4
Greed. Blame it on the developers not the engineers. I am an engineer, and I can assure you that often I am completely ignored. Engineers always want to design in a safety factor to guarantee adequate performance. Business cases and pressure from the sales group and product management drive back that safety factor. Anything they can do to lower cost and maximize profit margin.

In this particular case, that is exactly what happened. At some point, the building will need to be taken apart, piece by piece as controlled demolition has been ruled out due to a number of reasons. Of course, the taxpayer will need to pay for the removal as the culprits have long since filed bankruptcy.

Our "7-time bankruptcy" POTUS would probably approve though.

The Federal Reserve building is very close to there , unfortunately it's not leaning that way.
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
20,186
Likes
21,507
#5
In this particular case, that is exactly what happened. At some point, the building will need to be taken apart, piece by piece as controlled demolition has been ruled out due to a number of reasons. Of course, the taxpayer will need to pay for the removal as the culprits have long since filed bankruptcy.

Our "7-time bankruptcy" POTUS would probably approve though.

The Federal Reserve building is very close to there , unfortunately it's not leaning that way.
Gotta find a way to stick it to Trump! I see nothing has changed since I put you on ignore

trumpTARDdisorder.jpg


 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,769
#6
Put me back on ignore then. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I was expecting something more from you. I'm already outside the country. How about this: "if the gov't tramples your GOD given rights, it's your obligation to change it"
 

mayhem

Другая перспектива
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
3,773
Likes
5,252
#8
In this particular case, that is exactly what happened. At some point, the building will need to be taken apart, piece by piece as controlled demolition has been ruled out due to a number of reasons. Of course, the taxpayer will need to pay for the removal as the culprits have long since filed bankruptcy.

Our "7-time bankruptcy" POTUS would probably approve though.

The Federal Reserve building is very close to there , unfortunately it's not leaning that way.
Same story with the twin towers in NYC. The owners were told that they needed to remove all the asbestos that was sprayed on the floor beams, and replace all the fasteners holding the aluminum panels to the steel frame on the exterior. They applied for a permit to demo the buildings and were refused, twice. That's when Silverstien bought the buildings for cheap and made them targets for a FF.

So maybe they will fly a couple of planes into this building and call it a attack by North Korea or better yet the Russians.

PS: There was no reason to make the snarky comment about President Trump into this discussion.
He who is without sin cast the first stone. eh?
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,769
#9
Same story with the twin towers in NYC. The owners were told that they needed to remove all the asbestos that was sprayed on the floor beams, and replace all the fasteners holding the aluminum panels to the steel frame on the exterior. They applied for a permit to demo the buildings and were refused, twice. That's when Silverstien bought the buildings for cheap and made them targets for a FF.

So maybe they will fly a couple of planes into this building and call it a attack by North Korea or better yet the Russians.

PS: There was no reason to make the snarky comment about President Trump into this discussion.
He who is without sin cast the first stone. eh?
I liked your comment. You are correct.

About Trump, I don't actually believe declaring bankruptcy is a sin so I don't think I was casting the first stone there. Bankruptcy is the law of the land and Trump has said many times that he simply took advantage of the system as designed.

He didn't design the fake money, dishonest and unfair monetary and financial systems and just because the system is set up so the super rich can do these things, many more times and to more benefit than the average person isn't his fault, or at least wasn't his fault.

But now that he's POTUS, I would have hoped he would seek to level the playing field for the average person compared to the super rich. Is that too much to ask of our POTUS? Answer: For many members here, it seems so.
 

Bobthetomato

New Member
Seeker
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
93
Likes
52
#11
California is one of the few states you can't transfer your PE to due to the earthquake requirements in construction. Odds are someone signed off on it who didn't care. The disturbing thing is that someone in the government gave the okay. They should both be stripped of their PEs and fired retroactively.
 

Mujahideen

Black Member
Midas Member
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
9,384
Likes
15,580
Location
America!
#12
Someone there has got to be thinking... how can we make the taxpayers pay to fix it?
 

Joe King

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
5,932
Likes
5,913
Location
Instant Gratification Land
#16
And then, there's the indelicate question: who pays for all this?
Here's your answer.
the city approved the plan
The whole point of getting permits and submitting plans is (presumably) to make sure that everything is done correctly. If the plans were submitted and approved, what exactly is the City checking for in such a process?
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
20,186
Likes
21,507
#17
Here's your answer.


The whole point of getting permits and submitting plans is (presumably) to make sure that everything is done correctly. If the plans were submitted and approved, what exactly is the City checking for in such a process?
The city is only interested in assuring the checks from all the fees they receive all clear.

It's OK though, the people out there deserve what they get because they keep electing these people to screw them dry day after day. I laugh at their pain and suffering and enjoy reading about their misfortunes. Karma is a bitch!
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
20,186
Likes
21,507
#19
She sells
Sea Shells
on the
Sea Shore

My rendition:

They build
Tall things
over there
On the Fill

Crap, total bust....was better in my head till it hit paper, err sudo paper.
You're on a roll tonight Mikey! :2 thumbs up:
 

Silver

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
3,322
Likes
4,392
#20
fell.jpg
Greed. Blame it on the developers not the engineers. I am an engineer, and I can assure you that often I am completely ignored. Engineers always want to design in a safety factor to guarantee adequate performance. Business cases and pressure from the sales group and product management drive back that safety factor. Anything they can do to lower cost and maximize profit margin.
I blame the engineers - and they are the liable party. When you put your PE stamp on the plans, you are taking legal liability.

It fell to Millennium's geotechnical engineers to analyze the ground below and design an appropriate foundation. They went with a foundation driven 80 feet deep into a layer of dense sand.
Sand? Really, for a 645' 54 story building? It doesn't take an engineer to know that is plain dumb.

Did they use Chinese engineers?
 

michael59

heads up-butts down
Platinum Bling
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
7,785
Likes
4,273
Location
on the low side of corporate Oregon
#21
IDK what ya all think of me but this 'Cascadia subduction Fault' is about ready to go, in fact I think it is over due by geological sense. When it goes then the Baja will disengage from Mexico and move north becoming a Channel Island and Frisco which already has...5 different substrata land aggregates is going to shake. And, we all know what happens when the used-2-B Barbary Coast gets shaken up? Oh yeah, totally; It turns into the spouting fountains of rainbows and BURNS up...yep happens ever time.
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
20,186
Likes
21,507
#22
IDK what ya all think of me but this 'Cascadia subduction Fault' is about ready to go, in fact I think it is over due by geological sense. When it goes then the Baja will disengage from Mexico and move north becoming a Channel Island and Frisco which already has...5 different substrata land aggregates is going to shake. And, we all know what happens when the used-2-B Barbary Coast gets shaken up? Oh yeah, totally; It turns into the spouting fountains of rainbows and BURNS up...yep happens ever time.
From your keyboard to God's ears!
 

ttazzman

Midas Member
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
4,853
Likes
4,302
Location
mid-usa
#25
its not the cities job to do designs....only to confirm the designs were done by a correctly certified professional and in accordance to current building code...

and the op article ...rarely do building foundation structures go to bed rock...many parts of the world that would be impractical.....in the case of the article would be my assumption that the foundation structures were certainly inadequately designed for the soils and are failing unsymmetrically but may have been up to code and current knowledge at the time as earthquake designs are a ever developing/evolving process
 
Last edited:

stAGgering

Silver Miner
Seeker
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
722
Likes
366
#26
its not the cities job to do designs....only to confirm the designs were done by a correctly certified professional and in accordance to current building code...

and the op article ...rarely do building foundation structures go to bed rock...many parts of the world that would be impractical.....in the case of the article would be my assumption that the foundation structures were certainly inadequately designed for the soils and are failing unsymmetrically but may have been up to code and current knowledge at the time as earthquake designs are a ever developing/evolving process

MMKay..?

MmmKay.
 

Buck

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
3,202
Likes
2,714
#27
Know what they used to do to a home builder, in the olden days, when a house he and his crew built, failed?

They were killed

Know what happened to a horse thief, in the not so olden days?

They were killed

Know what happens to a politician, today, when they fuck things up so badly that more than double the original cost has to be spent to secure the new build? or when people die due to their negligence?

They're given awards, promotions and retirement packages that we the taxpayer get to pay for

Happy Happy
Joy Joy
 

newmisty

Duppy Conqueror
Midas Member
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
10,301
Likes
10,194
Location
Omerica
#28
View attachment 98692

I blame the engineers - and they are the liable party. When you put your PE stamp on the plans, you are taking legal liability.



Sand? Really, for a 645' 54 story building? It doesn't take an engineer to know that is plain dumb.

Did they use Chinese engineers?
I too was going to mention the Chinese Ghost City Engineers who build towering apartment buildings that get quickly abandoned when they start cracking apart as it's sinking.
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,769
#29
Same story with the twin towers in NYC. The owners were told that they needed to remove all the asbestos ... and replace all the fasteners .... They applied for a permit to demo the buildings and were refused, twice. That's when Silverstien bought the buildings for cheap and made them targets for a FF.
So maybe they will fly a couple of planes into this building and call it a attack by North Korea or better yet the Russians.

mayhem, you had to give them the idea?

We better start paying closer attention to this building. If some slime ball traitor like Silverstien buys it or takes control of it, we'll want to check on the put-call ratios for airline stocks. Who was it that said, "never let a good crisis go to waste?"

Maybe this is how they'll get all those PC, liberal yuppies to finally endorse the war on terror.

All the major banks have big buildings right around the corner from there, I wonder if any of them are storing gold?
 

Rollie Free

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
4,604
Likes
3,936
Location
Nebraska
#30
In this particular case, that is exactly what happened. At some point, the building will need to be taken apart, piece by piece as controlled demolition has been ruled out due to a number of reasons. Of course, the taxpayer will need to pay for the removal as the culprits have long since filed bankruptcy.

Our "7-time bankruptcy" POTUS would probably approve though.

The Federal Reserve building is very close to there , unfortunately it's not leaning that way.
What the heck? How do you go about pulling Trump into this conversation?
Is this GIM's version on MSNBC?
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
20,186
Likes
21,507
#31
What the heck? How do you go about pulling Trump into this conversation?
Is this GIM's version on MSNBC?
I know, it gets old for me too!! We have a few Russian bots and Shareblue employees who like to complain about Trump at every opportunity. They spread over the internet like cancer. Just call them out and they slither back into hiding for a bit.
 

mtnman

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
3,724
Likes
5,754
Location
East Tennessee
#32
But now that he's POTUS, I would have hoped he would seek to level the playing field for the average person compared to the super rich. Is that too much to ask of our POTUS? Answer: For many members here, it seems so.
"our POTUS" You said you didn't live in the US. Not your President.
 

mtnman

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
3,724
Likes
5,754
Location
East Tennessee
#33
Greed. Blame it on the developers not the engineers. I am an engineer, and I can assure you that often I am completely ignored. Engineers always want to design in a safety factor to guarantee adequate performance. Business cases and pressure from the sales group and product management drive back that safety factor. Anything they can do to lower cost and maximize profit margin.
If you are completely ignored do you still sign off on the plans and OK them?
 

<SLV>

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,116
Likes
3,616
#34
If you are completely ignored do you still sign off on the plans and OK them?
I'm sure it is different in my setting (mechanical engineer). I don't have the privilege of final approval.
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,769
#35
"our POTUS" You said you didn't live in the US. Not your President.
I travel a lot. America is my land and the land of my fathers. If the gov't tramples on your God given rights, it's your duty and obligation to change that gov't.

There's been only one politician in DC who has done what he said he would do. In the last 30 years we have had traitors in DC, with only one exception.

The last leader of the free world said the troops would "come home on day one" and the current leader of the free world claimed he would "make America great again." 8 years later (beyond day 1) the troops were still in harm's way and continue to be there today, one year later after Trump's message America is in worse shape. These politicians can talk the talk but they can't walk the walk. RP, during his LONG career as a politician continuously tried to move the nation toward his agenda but the other 435 politicians and each new POTUS stopped him.
 

michael59

heads up-butts down
Platinum Bling
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
7,785
Likes
4,273
Location
on the low side of corporate Oregon
#36
And Nixon said he would end the Vietnam conflict but he only started the process to end it but it still ended.

So you would throw out a Man who took one million from his dad, went bankrupt a few times, had some collage where the stupid people who could not get into real estate sued him, you would take that man who is making this nation get going and trash him because?

What did all the other poop stains do that benefited this country? List me something they did that put money in your pocket that did not come out of someone else's pocket.

If you want to talk stock market we can because it in itself is going to pop and that is what the last few days have showed.

Me? I just want the man to do his job and I am sure he can even if he has to fight the pariah off as it only makes him look stronger. Which in turns makes the nation look stronger.

I would have liked the little guy from Texas to have been elected as we have needed this since the early '90s, but no we have to wait 24 years. Do I give the Trump a signed blank check? No but he is who he is and he has been around and worked with all these newYonkers who are democrats, hell he even know's where the Nancy is getting her strange stuff from and in which drawer she hides it.

Just think of it 24 years of duds and yes I am throwing the Reagun under the short bus because we have always needed a business man running this country and this is what the democrats truly abhor; they doo not want an Administrator that can run the country because then it is very apparent that neither the republicans or the democrats were doing it right. This is why the bureaucrats have doggedly attacked the Trump.
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,209
Likes
1,769
#37
And Nixon said he would end the Vietnam conflict but he only started the process ....
Young Americans in uniform are put into harms way, to kill people who are not a threat to us and to protect dictators in far away places. We have killed many people around the world since the war on terror started and we have borrowed over 10 trillion dollars to spend doing it. Millions of people have suffered and died due to the American MIC, "war for profit" agenda. Trump wants more of the same, he doesn't even say he wants to end them. He wants more war on drugs and more real war for profit.
 

michael59

heads up-butts down
Platinum Bling
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
7,785
Likes
4,273
Location
on the low side of corporate Oregon
#39
Wasn't Herbert Hoover the last businessman we elected for POTUS?

BF
That's what they say but he turn a profit like the Trump. All I guess what I am really getting at is in order for the Trump to have accomplish what he did prior to being elected is he has to know who he was dealing with and not work at their whims.