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Scorpio

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By now most should have heard that Carrier Air Conditioning is closing their US plants and moving all production to mehico,

Not a peep out of oatsama, the great union president, the great working class president, not a fookin' word,

Anyway, Trump came on and blasted them. Said no problem, do what you have to do, but.............when you try to import them back in here after killing US jobs, there will be a 35% tariff attached to those air conditioners. Have a good life!
 

Krag

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I have no problem with tariffs though libertarians hate them. Buchanan makes sense on the issue. The way we are going there will be nothing for Americans to do most of the time except getting sucked into the internet world.
 

Libertaurum

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Carrier execs and stockholders are probably under the impression that they own their business and that their customers make their own decisions about what to buy. They haven't yet embraced the concept, so popular these days, of collective ownership of the means of production. They don't realize that the collective owns everything and can use force to slap an arbitrary overcharge on any of their products, forcing their customers to overpay for their products. All for the "common good", of course. Perhaps in time they too will see the wonders of nationalist socialism and fall in line w Kim Jung Trump.
 

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By now most should have heard that Carrier Air Conditioning is closing their US plants and moving all production to mehico,

Not a peep out of oatsama, the great union president, the great working class president, not a fookin' word,

Anyway, Trump came on and blasted them. Said no problem, do what you have to do, but.............when you try to import them back in here after killing US jobs, there wiSoll be a 35% tariff attached to those air conditioners. Have a good life!

Assuming he could just issue the decree and make it so, the 35% tariff would just be shifted to the buyer of said air conditioning equipment- the American people. Oh, and it would ignite a trade war in the process. How is this good for us?

If the corporate taxes were lower and the alphabet soup agencies would back off, these businesses would stay here. And foreign businesses would flock here too. Pretty simple really.

Trump has diarrhea of the mouth and can be counted on to blab an opposing position tomorrow. Why anyone puts any stock into anything he says is beyond me.
 

Scorpio

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Oh sure, heard all those arguments before, and they are propagated by msm on purpose,

but the reality is, why are the companies doing this?

the focus needs to be on the why rather than the action/reaction side of it IMO
 

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Assuming he could just issue the decree and make it so, the 35% tariff would just be shifted to the buyer of said air conditioning equipment- the American people...

Trump doesn't need to impose any tariffs. All he has to do is use that mighty pen and issue a EO to his departments like Customs and Border enforcement to inspect every AC unit with zero tolerance. The backlog would be immense. Then once past C&B the EPA would inspect every unit. One refrigerant leak and the whole lot goes back over the border. This is the BS that was pulled on him here in NY trying to build buildings and such. He knows all the dirty government tricks and will use them to his advantage. You'll see how fast Carrier brings production back to the US.
 

Scorpio

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Hey up old,

that is exactly why the 'theory' as Libertaurum doesn't survive,

that is exactly what happened to US exporters to japan and china,

they got totally hosed and the us .gov did absolutely nothing about it except watch US jobs get exported, and industries decimated,
 

D-FENZ

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...but the reality is, why are the companies doing this?

the focus needs to be on the why rather than the action/reaction side of it IMO

I'll try again.

Carrier (United Technologies), like any business has a profit motive. In fact they have a duty to their shareholders. If they can make their products in a country with a friendlier business climate they should do it. And labor cost isn't necessarily the big expense, it's the over-regulation by the EPA, OSHA, EEOC and all the rest. And taxes. Another recent addition are the mandates and expenses of obamacare. These are really big deals.

Carrier (UTX) and many other companies are simply willing to put up with the unskilled labor force, systemic corruption and lack of infrastructure in Mexico and elswhere because it's more profitable in spite of the downsides. If we had a more friendly business environment they would stay.

The old addage that money goes where it is treated the best applies the world over.
 

Scorpio

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sure I get that, no need to try again,

I could give a rats azz about carrier shareholders,

They want to sell their products to mehico, by all means go ahead on,

but you want to offshore your labor as apple, and all the others, great
but then don't expect to get a free ride to the american markets either

as for if they want to pass on their costs to the american consumer, guess what, they won't be able to, because the earning capacity of the american worker won't be able to afford their mehican products.

move to brazil, I don't care, not my concern

it is time to put a price on these pukes getting access to our markets and trashing our labor pool in the process,
this whole idea of destroying the earning capability of the people here has to stop somewhere,

free trade my keister, it is anything but
fair trade I am all for, but this whole msm thing of free trade is but a mirage

with labor force participation at the following chart, and this is all right as carrier adds to it?

It is high time to quit pretending these corporations are living breathing persons and give them exactly what they deserve.

$365.7B trade deficit with china per year and they get a free pass?
$68B trade deficit with japan is aok?
$58B trade deficit with mexico already is aok?



1.gif



https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c2010.html
 

Scorpio

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as for corporate burdens, oatsama care and all the rest,

yep, that is life in the big city, so what?

back in the day Lake Erie was a cesspool of industrial filth. Incredibly bad. They were forced to clean up their act and now Lake Eire has recovered. The same cannot be said of many areas of Mexico or China or????

There are repercussions to unrestrained corporate power, and it certainly isn't to the benefit of the many.
 
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Bigfoot

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I could give a rats azz about carrier shareholders

Those shareholders include vast numbers of American workers and retirees via investment funds. Carrier stops making a profit, and regular Americans will get the shaft, too.
 

Scorpio

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so???>

they want to play roulette with their retirement, that is their choice,
it is a casino after all, and many retirees are very familiar with their casino junkets

you mean those same seniors who voted for all this bs?
you mean those same seniors who haven't paid their bills as they went?
those same seniors who ran up $19T in debt?

those seniors?

Yeah, ok
 

Bigfoot

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I'm talking about the average Joe's money that gets put into some kind of retirement account, the managers of which account put some of that money into United Technologies. Then the government comes in with all sorts of regulations that make it difficult for the company to turn a profit. What is such a company supposed to do?
 

pre-64'

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America would do well to adopt the FairTax.org. When business must embed the cost of Income Taxes(Corporate and Individual) as well as Payroll Taxes(FICA), it puts Americans at a huge disadvantage. An end user sales tax makes far more sense and avoids tariff wars.

We could better fight over spending and over reach that way too. If we stop spending beyond poverty level spending, we starve the beast.
 

mtnman

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I ship all over the world. Every country on this earth EXCEPT the US have import tariffs. Why don't we? A long time ago this country supported itself with import tariffs, maybe it's time to try that again.
 

Bigfoot

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Every country on this earth EXCEPT the US have import tariffs.

But are those countries actually better off than the US because of those tariffs?

A long time ago this country supported itself with import tariffs, maybe it's time to try that again.

At the time the US government was supported by tariffs, the Federal Reserve didn't exist and there were no income taxes and no corporate gains taxes.

If we got rid of all the other forms of taxes, and only used low import tariffs, I could go for that. The problem is Trump wants high import tariffs on top of the other taxes that we already have. In the end, the average American is going to pay more taxes under Trump. The only difference is that now the tax increase will be sold as "protecting jobs" or something. That's what Trump does, tricks people into things.
 
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Libertaurum

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... that is exactly why the 'theory' as Libertaurum doesn't survive ...

Hey Scorp. I know we probably disagree on this issue, but let me share some of my reasoning here. The theory, essentially, is private property. What I support is simply the idea that individuals have certain inalienable rights, such as private property and freedom of association, and that they should be respected, not violated. That does include the right to trade, as well.


...it is time to put a price on these pukes getting access to our markets and trashing our labor pool in the process...

Are markets or labor pools collective property? Markets and labor pools are millions of individuals, each making decisions about what to buy, or whether to look for a better job, or go into business. To whom, if anyone, do they belong? What right is there to "put a price" on the ability to trade with them and, at the same time, on their ability to trade with others?

If a certain tariff prevents me from buying a product I would otherwise buy, I lose. "Protecting" domestic industries from "cheap imports" does not benefit consumers. It forces them to buy products they consider inferior, or to pay more for the same products. It amounts to a forced transfer of wealth from consumers to chosen industrial groups, or to the State.

...It is high time to quit pretending these corporations are living breathing persons and give them exactly what they deserve.

Doesn't "give them exactly what they deserve" sound like the kind of thing that would be done to living, breathing persons?

Anyway, corporations are obviously not living, breathing persons. I think the real issue is the limited liability laws allow corporations. That's an issue onto itself. But even without the "legal person" fiction, a person's liability could be limited by contract. If laws mandated that people had to put all of their property at risk with every business venture they participate in, rather than be liable to lose only the capital they invest in that business, it would probably significantly reduce the number of new businesses, and new jobs, created. But, more importantly, it would also most likely mean that those businesses that do get created would be much more timid in their goals and scope. I'm not saying that would necessarily be a "bad" thing, but it would definitely put a damper on the rapid advances made in certain industries and probably make life more costly for the average person.[/quote]


... $365.7B trade deficit with china per year and they get a free pass?
$68B trade deficit with japan is aok?
$58B trade deficit with mexico already is aok?

Who should be "punished" for the consequences of decisions made by consumers?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the outrage. I just think the cause of those trade deficits is more along the lines, as D-FENZ mentioned, of out-of-control taxes and regulations, many of which go well beyond keeping the water clean.
 

Scorpio

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Thanks Liber and D, as I wanted to bring up the other side of this, the real ugly side of this.

I am all for fair trade and take no issue with it. Yet we have some problems here that need to be corrected. When we have corps merging with offshore corps to hide from taxation, when we have corps holding cash instruments overseas we have problems here, when we have corps packing up their whole operations and moving only to retain a storefront here for access to wall street, we have problems.

This is without even mentioning other countries and the games they play, manipulating their currencies to effect this trade into our markets and to their advantage.

This is far deeper than just tossing tariffs on everything. To me anyway, we have a huge corporate/money/tax/wall street issue that no one is speaking to. A issue that is real hard to understand, and quite complex. Some on GIM understand what is going on, yet we are lacking so much information, that it is hard to piece together.

There are reasons these companies are hauling it out of here. I dare say that if we don't get to the bottom of it, there won't be any middle class here any longer.

Let's also not forget that Carrier has a union workforce here. Part of this play is to get away from the unions yet again. Ford announced the same thing not too long ago, or moving some production to Mexico, but the reality is, they too can't get reasonable relations with the unions. The up front costs + the legacy costs to these companies continues to encourage a 'grass is greener' over there mentality.

http://reverbpress.com/business/carrier-ac-workers-jobs-mexico/
 

Irons

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so???>

they want to play roulette with their retirement, that is their choice,
it is a casino after all, and many retirees are very familiar with their casino junkets

you mean those same seniors who voted for all this bs?
you mean those same seniors who haven't paid their bills as they went?
those same seniors who ran up $19T in debt?


those seniors?

Yeah, ok
Fecking DING DING DING!!!!


slow_clap_citizen_kane.gif
 

Rusty Shackelford

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Assuming he could just issue the decree and make it so, the 35% tariff would just be shifted to the buyer of said air conditioning equipment- the American people. Oh, and it would ignite a trade war in the process. How is this good for us?

If the corporate taxes were lower and the alphabet soup agencies would back off, these businesses would stay here. And foreign businesses would flock here too. Pretty simple really.

Trump has diarrhea of the mouth and can be counted on to blab an opposing position tomorrow. Why anyone puts any stock into anything he says is beyond me.

You are assuming that the cost of Carrier products will be cheaper now that they got rid of American wages. Carrier will still price tgeir product at the same rate they are charging now. How is that good for the consumer that lost his her job? All the tariff is doing is pricing tge product in a way to encourage the company to stay here. I am for a larger degree of self centered isolationism.
 

Eyebone

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If we don't support local industry, local people cannot afford to live in your community.

So you send your money to china then chinese will live in your community.

Remember, tariffs where the federal gov's only source of income?

Traitors buy what is cheap from wherever.
 

Libertaurum

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If we don't support local industry, local people cannot afford to live in your community.

So you send your money to china then chinese will live in your community.

Remember, tariffs where the federal gov's only source of income?

Traitors buy what is cheap from wherever.

So I suppose those who buy Chinese imports should be considered traitors and punished as such? Puh-leez.

Buying products from one supplier rather than another is not treason by any stretch of your imagination.

If you choose to make your own purchasing decisions based on misguided collectivist notions, such as nationalism, you are free to do that. That is the beauty of individualism. However, that doesn't give you any right to punish anyone else for their decisions, whether you agree with them or not. Neither by imposing tariffs on them nor by punishing them as traitors.
 

TAEZZAR

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The theory, essentially, is private property. What I support is simply the idea that individuals have certain inalienable rights, such as private property and freedom of association, and that they should be respected, not violated. That does include the right to trade, as well.

As a retired biz. owner, that is how I see it.
 

Unca Walt

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If we don't support local industry, local people cannot afford to live in your community.

So you send your money to china then chinese will live in your community.

Remember, tariffs where the federal gov's only source of income?

Traitors buy what is cheap from wherever.

Oh, fer the luvva gawd...

You got the balls to call ME a traitor? (*snork*) After all, I gots a brand-new SAIGA Rooshian-made AK-47.

I'se worse'n Benedict-fargin-Arnold, right?
 

TAEZZAR

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So I suppose those who buy Chinese imports should be considered traitors and punished as such? Puh-leez.

Buying products from one supplier rather than another is not treason by any stretch of your imagination.

If you choose to make your own purchasing decisions based on misguided collectivist notions, such as nationalism, you are free to do that. That is the beauty of individualism. However, that doesn't give you any right to punish anyone else for their decisions, whether you agree with them or not. Neither by imposing tariffs on them nor by punishing them as traitors.

Ya get what you pay for. People are too stupid to realize that. !!
Made in USA is the only way !!

The Bitterness of Poor Quality remains Long after the Sweetness of Low Price is Forgotten.
 

Libertaurum

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Ya get what you pay for. People are too stupid to realize that. !!
Made in USA is the only way !!

The Bitterness of Poor Quality remains Long after the Sweetness of Low Price is Forgotten.

Personally, I prefer product made in the US. In general, they are better quality and their warranties are more reliable. However, I have no qualms about buying products made in other countries so long as they are high-quality. I support the merit-system over nationalism of any kind.
 

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Whirlpool moved lines to Mexico....... and back again. They simply could not make good product there. Workers not showing up for an assembly line was a huge problem.
Robots won't have that problem.
 

Professur

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I would buy North American over imports. If I can even find an american version. And if it's not 5 times the price of the import. And if it's at all better quality. No real point to buy more expensive assembled in america crap made from all chinese parts, is there?

Best car I ever had, bar none, was my '89 Dodge Colt. Fantastic car, never let me down. 'Cept it wasn't a Dodge. It was a Mistubishi. 'Cept it wasn't a Mitsubishi 100% either. It was assembled in a Hyundai plant from Mitsubishi parts. Buy American? What does that even mean in this day and age? I don't think there's really any such thing anymore. Carrier might be assembled in the US, or Mexico. But the sheet steel is made where? The copper pipes, the electronics, the wiring? The paint? Trump might slap a tariff on assembled units, but will he go as far as tariffing the component parts? How can you build here without parts that nobody here makes?

Off shoring jobs didn't happen over night. And one president isn't going to reverse 50 years of short sighted decision making in one term.
 

mtnman

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Off shoring jobs didn't happen over night. And one president isn't going to reverse 50 years of short sighted decision making in one term.

NAFTA happened in a matter of a couple of years. Once that legislation was approved the sewing plants closed immediately and moved to Mexico. So. yes off shoring does happen over night.
 

Irons

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NAFTA happened in a matter of a couple of years. Once that legislation was approved the sewing plants closed immediately and moved to Mexico. So. yes off shoring does happen over night.
Sure does.

I was a 18 year experienced machinist on the floor in a tool and die mold making shop the season the GM orders did not come. Ford actually spread a lot of jobs to as many shops as they could but it wasn't near enough to save many.
Of course there were rumors and union shops around Detroit were closing but hell not us right?
Wrong. Folks about to retire were dumped, next anybody over 50, next the entire engineering and programming departments gone, then anybody who made good money and anybody who had too much paid time off.
Gone. Grown men damn near bawling.

Then after 6 months they called us and offered to hire us back for $12 an hour and no benefits. I was a zero debt lunatic even back then so I told them to go to hell. Most of the folks I worked with were debt slaves and had no choice. They are kind of bitter because they had lost everything already anyway.
I was in the process of extracting every shred of money they owed me with the advice of a family lawyer. Profit sharing, 401k, life insurance. I got it all out of them, amazing what certified letters from an attorney will do.
Fuckers, they screwed a lot of people over.
.
 
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Scorpio

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The negatives can argue all they want,

but the reality is, he isn't even pres yet, and this deal was cut,

it sets a tone, a very serious tone that is far different than the kenyan
 

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The negatives can argue all they want,

but the reality is, he isn't even pres yet, and this deal was cut,

it sets a tone, a very serious tone that is far different than the kenyan
I think the Canadians are jelly they have no Trump or Farage of their own. Just a little french poodle.

.
 

TAEZZAR

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I would buy North American over imports. If I can even find an american version. And if it's not 5 times the price of the import. And if it's at all better quality. No real point to buy more expensive assembled in america crap made from all chinese parts, is there?

Best car I ever had, bar none, was my '89 Dodge Colt. Fantastic car, never let me down. 'Cept it wasn't a Dodge. It was a Mistubishi. 'Cept it wasn't a Mitsubishi 100% either. It was assembled in a Hyundai plant from Mitsubishi parts. Buy American? What does that even mean in this day and age? I don't think there's really any such thing anymore. Carrier might be assembled in the US, or Mexico. But the sheet steel is made where? The copper pipes, the electronics, the wiring? The paint? Trump might slap a tariff on assembled units, but will he go as far as tariffing the component parts? How can you build here without parts that nobody here makes?

Off shoring jobs didn't happen over night. And one president isn't going to reverse 50 years of short sighted decision making in one term.

Prof, I buy ONLY USA made bearings, they cost about double the Chink bearings & last 5 times longer.
As for cars, we taught Japan how to make'm & I feel they surpassed us for many years.
When I was working, I had the Mark series Lincolns, mighty fine automobile, but pricey. When we moved to the forest, our MK VIII was not the car for the terrain.
We got a Subaru, for 15 years & 140,000 miles, it had only one repair, an A.C. hose connection failed. I'm on my second Subie & I think they are near indestructible,
but that is just my experience.
I had a Mitsubishi forklift with a Dodge engine, Dodge & Mitsubishi are joined at the hip. They did make a nice car too, you could barely tell one from the other, the Dodge Stealth vs. Mitsubishi 3000GT.
 

Professur

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I think the Canadians are jelly they have no Trump or Farage of their own. Just a little french poodle.

.

Actually ...

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau negotiating with U.S. President-elect Donald Trump is like having “Bambi” up against an “18-wheeler.”

Kevin O’Leary is warning Canada is going to get “squashed.”

So with Canada’s economy about to become American roadkill, it was good to hear the ‘Shark’ testing the waters to go in for a political kill.

Turns out, the Shark Tank and Dragons’ Den star is no longer just kicking the tires about a possible run for the federal Conservative leadership, but is now building a team before the Feb. 24 deadline — when he has to decide if he’s going to jump in for real.

“Yes,” he told me about looking for good people to work with. “I’m interviewing strategists, campaign managers and fund raisers, as well as lawyers familiar with Conservative and Elections Canada rules.”

With billions of our dollars wasted, massive debt left for out kids, and a clear lack of judgment on the world and domestic stages from Trudeau, hopefully O’Leary does follow through and run.

And with Trump talking about bringing back American business, it’s obvious Canada needs to not only have a strong leader, but also someone who believes in business, free enterprise and entrepreneurship. Most of the current Conservative leadership hopeful roster doesn’t have O’Leary’s qualifications on that front.

Trudeau/his principal secretary Gerald Butts can’t boast that either.

Mr. Wonderful is not only a multimillionaire, but like a Trump is a celebrity with a big personality who everybody knows as a brash populist who expresses exactly what is on his mind.

That he’s sometimes politically incorrect, and a political outsider, can only help him.

“Re Trump, the largest issue Canada faces is that he will be lowering taxes and lifting regulations, while Trudeau, Butts and (Finance Minister Bill) Morneau are taking the country in the exact opposite direction, making Canada the most uncompetitive jurisdiction in North America,” O’Leary told me. “Who is going to invest in Canada under Butts’ ill-conceived punitive anti-job carbon tax plan and Morneau’s soon-to-be-uncompetitive business tax structure?”

In recent days, O’Leary’s been in a Twitter battle with Butts.

Tweets Butts: “O’Leary calls himself an ‘eco-preneur,’ but invest(s) in coal companies & other large polluters.”

Tweets O’Leary: “Incompetent @RachelNotley spends 1.36B closing coal plants early instead of upgrading @gmbutts wiped out #Ontario doing this #WeakLeadership.”

But what Canadians and Americans are cognizant of is other regions in the world have our jobs and don’t have any interest in the strict pollution-reducing guidelines our industries must adhere to.

“Butts and I are getting into a debate about how carbon pricing should be implemented in Canada,” explains O’Leary. “His strategy destroyed the energy market in Ontario, even Wynne admits that now. However, Butts has not learned from his mistakes and now he wants to implement the same disastrous agenda across Canada.”

This is why O’Leary’s looking more and more like a potential candidate to try to make Trudeau a one-termer.

“They have no plan on how to compete. Weak leadership keeps Canada uncompetitive, and that is what we have now,” said O’Leary. “I have a better plan.”

A plan, he says, to be able to compete with a tough business world and an even tougher American president.

“I’m trying to shine the light of transparency on this government and ask it to provide the Canadian taxpayer with more performance and efficiency metrics,” O’Leary said. “I have not found one Canadian that does not want me to do that.”

Says O’Leary: “Trump changed the game on this government overnight. Now they are standing on the highway like a deer about to be run over by an 18-wheeler doing 120 km/h.”

Rather than be flattened, a shark wants to take a bite out of the American truck’s tires.

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/2016/11/29/22686790.html
 

Mujahideen

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The constitution gives congress the power collect duties and imposts for the general welfare of the nation.

The Congress shall have power

It's written into the supreme law of the land. End of story folks. Gutting our economy isn't good for our general welfare.
 

southfork

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The negatives can argue all they want,

but the reality is, he isn't even pres yet, and this deal was cut,

it sets a tone, a very serious tone that is far different than the kenyan


Wont get much press in the main street media, they are bound and determined to undermine anything he does.
 

solarion

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Wont get much press in the main street media, they are bound and determined to undermine anything he does.

Too many have already defected from the lamestream mockingbird media. They'll hear about Trump's successes from the so called "Russian propaganda" alt media sites or, as in this case, from a UK media outlet.

This is really happening folks...the mockingbird media is really...finally, losing its stranglehold on information.
 

Uglytruth

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Copper pipe is made in both the US & Canada.

What Irons said is 100% true. They want the skills but don't want to pay. Yuppies in golf shirts that know nothing look at you with dirty hands & treat you like your hanging off the back of a garbage truck. They don't work as a team they work for themselves then they drive expensive cars & rub it in your face. God I could go on for hr's.

Had a friend that purchased GM tooling. Was forced to send it all off shore. Then when they didn't get quality they sent it in to US shops to be "fixed" so it made good parts. Funny thing is lots of Toll & Die shops were 10-40 people. They mostly closed down in the late 2000's after years of being beat up by pimple faced MBA's that demanded yearly cost reductions. There was no where to send it to....... he ended up quitting due to stress. I went to the auctions & bought. Lifetimes of accumulated equipment walked out the doors for pennies. I always asked the owner ( they were easy to spot) how many people worked there, when was it started etc...... The stories would break your heart. Grandfather, Great Grandfather, Dad started it, etc.... I was at one auction and when loading up we were all shocked at how cheap stuff went. 20 x 40 ft banner 2006 Honda supplier of the year........ it was 2009. The light sprinkles that day was not rain, it was tears from the sky.