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UBI - Universal Basic Income

Zed

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#1
Thoughts? Best arguments against or for? Tubes, videos, articles post anything.

My natural tendency is on the side of no way will it work but I've seen some smart people speak in favor of it. That confuses me a little, I'd have thought that the problems where self evident.

The pope is talking about it so you have to assume that it is coming. I wanna get my argument down ahead of that game.
 

Fatrat

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#2
Money velocity not high enough, must steal from savers thru taxes and give to people who will spend it...
 

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#3
BB brings this up to me as a real possibility, and I continue to resist that it could be true,

but as I wrote about the other day, human labor is being marginalized, so?
you ask a good question, what does the future look like as robotization and mechanization move forward?

truth be told, we really aren't that far away with human inputs needed less and less,
machines talking back to you,
self driving vehicles including big rigs
self driving transports, whether trains or....
machines cranking out twinkies by the thousands per hour

simple stop light sensors, gauging traffic and monitoring the lights in all directions
 

edsl48

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#4
In the spirit of no cost meals provided at schools for the Free Stuff Army I can see that segment of society getting a UBI check in addition to keeping their current welfare benefits. The sky is no limit to pay them for their vote being the politician doing the buying is doing it with other people's, taxpayers, money.
 

BackwardsEngineeer

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#7
Random thoughts...

How is UBI different than welfare with food stamps? Those of us at or over retirement have a lifetime of accomplishments as our base, what does a 25 year old have? For most send them a check they'll party like crazy and breed like rabbits... then what system takes care of the never disciplined children?

How do you work out medical? We can't seem to come up with logical answers to the most basic of broad form healthcare issues as it is, then what?

Who grows the food, works in process and distribution? Nobody I have ever heard of dreamed of working at a slaughter house or rendering plant..

Lastly, who going to fight the wars? we going do that virtually as well?

Sounds like a lobotomized life in section 8 housing to me.... No one other than .gov claimed we were all the same, thank heavens we're not otherwise I'd have to quit being the funniest guy in the room!
 

GOLDBRIX

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#10
"When .gov is big enough to give everybody what they want they also big enough to take anything they want."[paraphrased]
Once we (people) lose the status of being valuable to any government we become chattel / cattle to that government or entity.
There are already some even here that think We the People are slaves to the systems in control.
You'll really know you are a slave when the systems can decide who lives, who dies, or how long the slave lives.
UBI is the Golden Path to destruction of all but the elite classes.
These Emergency Stimulus Packages are experiments of UBI and leading to true slavery of all people not of elite status. IMO
 

Cigarlover

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#12
This was Wangs platform. Under our current system it seems inflationary and we see the inflation in some areas like housing and autos but not so much in consumables.
Take the federal reserve away and let congress print the money and I doubt they get it right but there is some point of equilibrium where they print money as needed an it does not become inflationary. People use it to pay bills and eat and there isn't so much money in the system as to drive up the prices of major expenses like auto and housing.

Another way it could be accomplished instead is everyone gets a ration card for x amount of food per month. Basic needs are met and no cash for drugs and hookers. Then we have to wonder where we draw the line. Do we then provide healthcare for all? Housing and a car for everyone? Free gas on a limited basis every month. We already provide a phone and all of the above to about 15% of the population. A major reason why healthcare is so expensive IMO.
If we start going down that path where the government provides everything is there any reason to even have money anymore? Perhaps the incentive for money is a better quality of life if you want to be one who produces. So with money you can buy a nice home in the country. If you want to live off the system you get a decent apartment in the city with the rest of the free shit army. Everything is free but you never own anything and never create any wealth.
Once you start down that path (We already have) the possibilities are limitless. Personally I prefer the sink or swim model. You work or you go hungry and homeless. In that model you also cant have corporations using government to gain access or control of an industry and the governments role at that point is to ensure the corporations are not polluting and creating a mess that they will eventually leave for someone else to clean up.
 

the_shootist

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#13
We are witnessing the systematic death of fiat currency. Let it blow up! Those who saw this coming and prepared will be OK, The rest will struggle. Whatever replaces fiat will be better than what it has become, which is a purely manipulated and baseless system
 

GOLDBRIX

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#14
We are witnessing the systematic death of fiat currency. Let it blow up! Those who saw this coming and prepared will be OK, The rest will struggle. Whatever replaces fiat will be better than what it has become, which is a purely manipulated and baseless system
Digital ?
So much for bartering or flea markets
 

Cigarlover

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#15
We are witnessing the systematic death of fiat currency. Let it blow up! Those who saw this coming and prepared will be OK, The rest will struggle. Whatever replaces fiat will be better than what it has become, which is a purely manipulated and baseless system
Digital with a chip is complete enslavement. Not a world I want to live in.
 

the_shootist

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#16
Digital with a chip is complete enslavement. Not a world I want to live in.
That's one possibility yeah, but there are others. A gold backed currency comes to mind as one of them
 
Last edited:

GOLDZILLA

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#17
This is just preparation for the singularity. When it hits this will be workable, but until then it will just make the masses lazy and easy to conquer.
 

chris_is_here

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#18
It won't work.

Inflationary effect. To provide every family with say $40,000 per year of currency, you'd need $3.6 trillion every year. That's $3,600,000,000,000. Since this amounts dwarfs federal spending in any given year, all of this amount would have to be printed. $3.6 trillion every year, on top of $1-2 trillion of existing deficit spending would push us into galloping inflation, with double-digit inflation every year of at least 20%. Galloping inflation will discourage savings, suppress capital spending and send the economy into a tailspin. As economic activity falls, the government will be forced into more quantitative easing, further accelerating inflation and forcing us into a hyperinflationary collapse.

DNC presidential candidate Andrew Yang thought UBI could be financed through a VAT. The problem with VAT is that it is a very high tax over the entire production chain and this cost would have to be passed down to consumers for business to stay profitable. So, here again, you have very high inflation, erosion of savings, etc.

Ultimately, you cannot create wealth by printing money, which is all UBI is - a money printing scheme.

There is one off-beat solution which no one has even considered, which could put millions of people to work and accelerate our technological development. If we targeted interstellar space travel in this century, we could accomplish a lot. Even a small-scale plan to mine planets within our solar system could reap huge gains, in terms of rare earth materials and potential new water sources. To do this, we would first need an all-out push to develop better propulsion systems. There are already some decent possibilities: matter-anti-matter drives, solar sails, etc. I doubt we are anywhere near an Alcubierre warp drive, but that might come in time with technology advances. This would be capital intensive, so it could only happen if the USA government committed to fund it.

We went to the moon 6 times between 1969-1972 and then what? NASA poured billions into the outdated space shuttle program, the biggest waste of time and money. If that money had been focused on space propulsion, we might already be on our way.
 

GOLDBRIX

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#21
That's one possibility yeah, but there are others. A gold backed currency comes to mind as one of them
But outside of our little group who is talking about Gold Backed Currency ?
Not many. Please feel free to point me in the direction where GBC gets talked up.
 

BarnacleBob

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#22
Look back at the history of the industrial age and its relationship with labor. In the beginning 80 & 100 hour work weeks were standard... that changed when a greater volume of nonfarm labor was required to consume the industrial production. The industrialists created labor laws, labor unions & the 40 hpur work week. Children were prohibited from working the factory floors as they competed with adult labor. Labor unions were installed to control the volume of productions & the price of goods presently & into the future.

Western labor took a big hit when the Iron Curtain/USSR collapsed & 1.4 billion Chinese entered the global labor market. A flood of cheap global labor resulted, and the multinational corporations moved production to these low cost labor jurisdictions..... Karl Marx identified the problem in his manifesto, namely that labor must receive adequate wages if they are to be capable of consuming the mass production of the products of the factory system.

To date, due to the onslaught of excess global skilled, semi-skilled & unskilled labor, wages in the west have failed to retain the required relationship to maintain a rising standard of living. This has been temporarilly subsidised by mountains of flotations of various forms of credit (credit cards, HELOCS, finance companies, etc.), a rising stock & real estate market, etc. all designed to provide financial access to consumers to consume production. In many ways, these schemes are merely dressed down defacto UBI.....

I think before UBI is installed full time, which will be required when AI & automation is running most production factories, we will prolly first observe a 20 hour work week with generous vacation time.... this must & will be co-ordinated with advancements in military robots, etc... as a balance is required between the private & military economies.

Best I can tell, its being worked out now as various experiments are underway employing UBI around the world.... quite simply as labor is marginalized by AI & machines, UBI will be required if consumers are to consume mass production.... JMO
 

specsaregood

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#23
Once the masses are useless we will be discarded. The only question is how.
Maybe if you decide to get this free money, a caveat is that you can’t have children?
I've been saying that for a long time. UBI, Welfare, etc needs to be tied to voluntary sterilization. If you can't afford to take care of yourselves and need somebody else to do it for you, then you shouldn't have kids.
 

the_shootist

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#24
But outside of our little group who is talking about Gold Backed Currency ?
Not many. Please feel free to point me in the direction where GBC gets talked up.
It matters less about who's talking about it than it does for who actually has the power to implement it
 

madhu

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#25
This was Wangs platform. Under our current system it seems inflationary and we see the inflation in some areas like housing and autos but not so much in consumables.
Take the federal reserve away and let congress print the money and I doubt they get it right but there is some point of equilibrium where they print money as needed an it does not become inflationary. People use it to pay bills and eat and there isn't so much money in the system as to drive up the prices of major expenses like auto and housing.

Another way it could be accomplished instead is everyone gets a ration card for x amount of food per month. Basic needs are met and no cash for drugs and hookers. Then we have to wonder where we draw the line. Do we then provide healthcare for all? Housing and a car for everyone? Free gas on a limited basis every month. We already provide a phone and all of the above to about 15% of the population. A major reason why healthcare is so expensive IMO.
If we start going down that path where the government provides everything is there any reason to even have money anymore? Perhaps the incentive for money is a better quality of life if you want to be one who produces. So with money you can buy a nice home in the country. If you want to live off the system you get a decent apartment in the city with the rest of the free shit army. Everything is free but you never own anything and never create any wealth.
Once you start down that path (We already have) the possibilities are limitless. Personally I prefer the sink or swim model. You work or you go hungry and homeless. In that model you also cant have corporations using government to gain access or control of an industry and the governments role at that point is to ensure the corporations are not polluting and creating a mess that they will eventually leave for someone else to clean up.
Liked your post. Corporate welfare and cronyism dwarfs what little serfs get as social service. Even in socialist countries some are treated more preferably and showered with government contracts. Basically monopolies and oligarchy thrives. Debauchery of the currency makes manual labor worthless and less. Socialism exposes the fundamental flaw in our fiat currency. The value in the fiat currency is induced by human labor. If everything is free what is the incentive to those who choose to work and be productive? This UBI, universal basic income is a false paradigm encouraged by people and companies who indirectly benefit from government. Socialize all the losses and needed infrastructure and privatize all gain. To even the playing field, education and medical care needs to be made affordable and available to all that need it.
Why stop here. Let’s give away all the empty apartment buildings in major cities to homeless people at government expense to maintain them. What will people do when they have 24 hours for themselves. Have to indulge in drugs and hookers. May be the CIA can provide that free too.
 

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#26

southfork

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#27
There are many leaches who make more off .gov that some that work for a living, most of the billionares should have their money confisicated and shared with everyone, then you will no longer see the cries for ubi
 

GOLDBRIX

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#28
It matters less about who's talking about it than it does for who actually has the power to implement it
Implementation usually comes after whispers or leaks have become popular.
 

GOLDBRIX

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#29
There are many leaches who make more off .gov that some that work for a living, most of the billionares should have their money confisicated and shared with everyone, then you will no longer see the cries for ubi
The cries will be pleas to not execute Me, You, Loved Ones,.... As the people will longer be of use to the elite or .Gov.
 

Rollie Free

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#30
If we were to view the nation from outer space (and had fine eyes) we would see the activity of people. Now there is cash, digital money, sophisticated financial laws being made but those activities are meant to induce things, they don't do anything on their own. What we should like to see is efficient, meaningful activity. Bridges being built, parks being maintained, transportation devices manufactured. All this, hopefully. We would NOT like to see sloths using up resources others have fashioned. We should avoid some doing the work and others not. That would build bitterness.
We would like everyone capable involved, this would make the world a better place.

I see nothing with basic income that would do anything but throw a monkey wrench into the state of affairs. I would be on the side of this being a scam and I don't care how many 'smart people' say otherwise.
 

Rollie Free

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#31
I would add: This would also create a political class that would eventually throw us into a Madmax environment. The horde would grow and grow and have the voting power to overcome the producers. We would also become, all of us, wards of the state, to a much higher degree than we are now.
 

GOLDBRIX

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#32
I would add: This would also create a political class that would eventually throw us into a Madmax environment. The horde would grow and grow and have the voting power to overcome the producers. We would also become, all of us, wards of the state, to a much higher degree than we are now.
"wards of the state" to chattle/cattle useful until we are not.
 

Cigarlover

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#33
It won't work.

Inflationary effect. To provide every family with say $40,000 per year of currency, you'd need $3.6 trillion every year. That's $3,600,000,000,000. Since this amounts dwarfs federal spending in any given year, all of this amount would have to be printed. $3.6 trillion every year, on top of $1-2 trillion of existing deficit spending would push us into galloping inflation, with double-digit inflation every year of at least 20%. Galloping inflation will discourage savings, suppress capital spending and send the economy into a tailspin. As economic activity falls, the government will be forced into more quantitative easing, further accelerating inflation and forcing us into a hyperinflationary collapse.

DNC presidential candidate Andrew Yang thought UBI could be financed through a VAT. The problem with VAT is that it is a very high tax over the entire production chain and this cost would have to be passed down to consumers for business to stay profitable. So, here again, you have very high inflation, erosion of savings, etc.

Ultimately, you cannot create wealth by printing money, which is all UBI is - a money printing scheme.

There is one off-beat solution which no one has even considered, which could put millions of people to work and accelerate our technological development. If we targeted interstellar space travel in this century, we could accomplish a lot. Even a small-scale plan to mine planets within our solar system could reap huge gains, in terms of rare earth materials and potential new water sources. To do this, we would first need an all-out push to develop better propulsion systems. There are already some decent possibilities: matter-anti-matter drives, solar sails, etc. I doubt we are anywhere near an Alcubierre warp drive, but that might come in time with technology advances. This would be capital intensive, so it could only happen if the USA government committed to fund it.

We went to the moon 6 times between 1969-1972 and then what? NASA poured billions into the outdated space shuttle program, the biggest waste of time and money. If that money had been focused on space propulsion, we might already be on our way.
To avoid inflation, the key would be to provide just enough money for people to live. So if every person spends 50 bucks a week on food then every person gets 50 bucks a week for food. And so on down the line with all items. Eventually all of the money provided ends up in someones paycheck or retirement account or savings. That which is not rested to produce more food of course.
The problem is that people need 50 bucks a week for food so the government gives them 100. Same basic concept with healthcare. in 1990 a triple bypass was 15,000 or less than 1/2 a years pay for someone. When the government got involved and started paying for everyones triple bypass the price went to 250,000 because the government was paying. Hospitals got to suck up all that excess medical money being paid by 16-60 year olds, into the government system. Someone, somewhere greased the gov persons enough to make that happen.

I like the space idea. I think that should replace the MIC. Although we don't need water I am definitely down on mining other planets, meteors and moons. We do need a better launch system though.. Space x seems to have made some serious progress and lowered the cost per lb to lift things into orbit.. The rockets landing for reuse still doesn't look real to me.
 
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#34
Would involve take from the rich and foreign countries handouts and give to the poor. They wont go for it.

Me thinks America would rather see millions evicted and die in the street homeless.

We will see what haps in a few months if the virus does not go away or can be controlled with meds.

The deciding factor will be once shelter in place is lifted. If virus erupts once shelter in place is over then you will have your answer. America as we had known it is over and our old model for life will not work any longer.

...it all depends on the virus.
 
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#35
Simple.

Eventually you run out of other peoples money

https://goldismoney2.com/threads/just-heard-harry-dent-on-becks-tv-show.363691/

The coming depression WILL WRECK HAVOC on the government to pay for things. They won't be able to print enough money - worse than the LAST GREAT DEPRESSION...

just sayin
They don't need to print, just a few keystrokes can create billions. But CV has the potential of real destruction to our way of life if it will not go away or be controlled with meds.
 

skychief

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#36
UBI is nothing more than a silly wealth redistribution scheme.

Like socialism, UBI has failed everywhere it has been tried.

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
 

chris_is_here

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#37
Would involve take from the rich and foreign countries handouts and give to the poor. They wont go for it.

Me thinks America would rather see millions evicted and die in the street homeless.

We will see what haps in a few months if the virus does not go away or can be controlled with meds.

The deciding factor will be once shelter in place is lifted. If virus erupts once shelter in place is over then you will have your answer. America as we had known it is over and our old model for life will not work any longer.

...it all depends on the virus.
Permanent lockdown? That won't fly. We're already near a revolution after one month of this nonsense. At some point, people are going to decide that their own survival is more important than covid and they will no longer abide by the lockdown. Then, it gets really interesting, because the genie will be out of the bottle: the elites can only control us with our consent. If we don't consent, they are exposed as powerless.

I think the country is divided solidly along political lines with respect to the virus. People that love freedom and have two brain cells to rub together can figure out the game. We won't social distance, we won't take a forced vaccine and we won't be shut out of life, period. The rest of the country, the lemmings, are actually going further into their protective shells, avoiding everything. Frankly, I could care less if they march their own asses off to Kamp FEMA so they can be chipped and vacced, so be it. I won't shed any tears for any of them. They were warned, they chose not to listen. So, they become cattle.
 

Bottom Feeder

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#38
I have comix depicting results of UBI in the future: RanXerox
[That is just a link to an ebait auction of that series (not my ad, BTW, just random - bf)]
Sci-Fi always hits the mark on dystopian futures.

BF
 

hammerhead

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#40
Somehow I don't see the rich sticking around for long when half of their wealth is taken from them every year just to fund sedentary and non-productive people?
The rich and the working poor. Not much if a middle class to steal from.
The non-producers could smile and wave to the poor fecker that is going to work.