• "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding metals, finance, politics, government and many other topics"

UBI - Universal Basic Income

Someone_else

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Midas Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
3,304
Likes
4,865
#42
Somehow I don't see the rich sticking around for long when half of their wealth is taken from them every year just to fund sedentary and non-productive people?
Let's look at the "rich" and decide which earned their profits and which did not.
 

WillA2

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2019
Messages
1,855
Likes
4,871
#43
Someone has already mentioned this, but it bears repeating. If a Universal Basic Income becomes the norm, we are better off with an economic system devoid of money. Why would money be necessary?

UBI is bad all around. There is no good to come from it when you follow the logic to its conclusion. The Star Trek model is a pipe dream for mankind as it is now.

Hunger is a good teacher. If someone doesn't work, especially if they are unwilling to do so, should go hungry. An empty stomach is a great motivator.

I can hear it now, "But, but, but the kids." Teach them early that there are no free rides. Nothing is free. Nothing will be fair. Teach them to think and work.

Digital currency is backed by even less than fiat paper. There needs to something of value to measure honest exchange.
 

Zed

The Bullish Bear.
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
19,048
Likes
20,459
Location
Watching the Sideshow!
#44
BB brings this up to me as a real possibility, and I continue to resist that it could be true,

but as I wrote about the other day, human labor is being marginalized, so?
you ask a good question, what does the future look like as robotization and mechanization move forward?

truth be told, we really aren't that far away with human inputs needed less and less,
machines talking back to you,
self driving vehicles including big rigs
self driving transports, whether trains or....
machines cranking out twinkies by the thousands per hour

simple stop light sensors, gauging traffic and monitoring the lights in all directions
I don't buy the whole AI will put us all out of work thing, basically it is the same argument people used against mechanization and the industrial revolution. All that happened is a whole new range of jobs that we never considered before opened up and we all moved up the food chain.
 

Scorpio

Hunter of Chin Li's Boo Hoo Flu
Founding Member
Board Elder
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
33,193
Likes
48,891
#45
yep Zed, that is why I have been resisting it,

thinking along those same lines,

yet, is it really up the food chain, or is it into redundancy for something to do?
for instance, the corporate behemoths are chock full of middle mgt types all vying for position,
not doing anything of significance, but taking up space and pretending nonetheless,

then too, the productivity and decision making of those types is severely restrained IMO
 

Zed

The Bullish Bear.
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
19,048
Likes
20,459
Location
Watching the Sideshow!
#46
Somehow I don't see the rich sticking around for long when half of their wealth is taken from them every year just to fund sedentary and non-productive people?
Basically the people that are productive will need to make the money that they are taxed from the general population, including all those that are on UBI only, that will feed back into the cost structure and the purchasing power of the UBI will fall away. Then they will end up in a never ending raising cycle as the market constantly discounts the 'free money'. IMO it will be inflationary and a total disincentive for anyone to take on the lower level 'hard/nasty jobs'. The other thing is that all lower level jobs will discounting the UBI when the wage is offered, so it will be a $100 salary becomes $60 as it is offered -$40 for the UBI which is $40 (we have to cover the extra tax somehow!)

I think that all sorts of market adjustments will make whatever UBI is offered next to worthless.
 

Zed

The Bullish Bear.
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
19,048
Likes
20,459
Location
Watching the Sideshow!
#47
yet, is it really up the food chain, or is it into redundancy for something to do?
for instance, the corporate behemoths are chock full of middle mgt types all vying for position,
not doing anything of significance, but taking up space and pretending nonetheless,
Yeah, I hear you. I think that there is a golden age for many business models where by the leverage that they offer and the profit that they generate allows the organisation to put on fat. I worked for a big publisher when the internet surfaced, it was full of those types, they all laughed at my forecasts for the technology and dragged their feet as the whole thing progressed. Long story short, they blew it and are all out of work and irrelevant now. I think that the market works these things out over time, if you see the fat in the business it is probably headed for decline... or government protected.
 

Casey Jones

Ridin' that train
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
2,804
Likes
4,242
Location
Down the road from the Kaczynski ranch
#48
It's "Free Money."

No one ever gave anything away for free that wasn't worth exactly that.

What this is, is complete debasement of the currency. And the immediate effects on the ground, will be inflation of the price of staples.

If everyone is $1000 a month richer, then rents, and food, and necessities, reflect that.

Because shelter and food are limited commodities. Mo' Money fo' Free, just immediately raises the prices.

Prices are a form of rationing - limited supply allocation. Give the indigent money, and...before the collapse...prices explode.
 

Zed

The Bullish Bear.
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
19,048
Likes
20,459
Location
Watching the Sideshow!
#49
It's "Free Money."

No one ever gave anything away for free that wasn't worth exactly that.

What this is, is complete debasement of the currency. And the immediate effects on the ground, will be inflation of the price of staples.

If everyone is $1000 a month richer, then rents, and food, and necessities, reflect that.

Because shelter and food are limited commodities. Mo' Money fo' Free, just immediately raises the prices.

Prices are a form of rationing - limited supply allocation. Give the indigent money, and...before the collapse...prices explode.
Money becomes worth what it takes to earn it.
 

Aurumag

Ag mirror of truth Aurum purity of mind
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
12,424
Likes
17,758
Location
State of Jefferson
#50
It's "Free Money."

No one ever gave anything away for free that wasn't worth exactly that.

What this is, is complete debasement of the currency. And the immediate effects on the ground, will be inflation of the price of staples.

If everyone is $1000 a month richer, then rents, and food, and necessities, reflect that.

Because shelter and food are limited commodities. Mo' Money fo' Free, just immediately raises the prices.

Prices are a form of rationing - limited supply allocation. Give the indigent money, and...before the collapse...prices explode.
Sounds rational, but what if a particular someone is amongst a subset of those who get ZERO, while everyone around you, including illegals, are getting FRNs?

Mark of the Beast?

Some are already being starved out, and most of them are Christians...
 

Silver

Midas Board Mmbr
Midas Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
7,896
Likes
13,858
#51
Future human with UBI. Better viewing at link, didn't paste well.

https://www.onlinecasino.ca/future-gamer


Meet Michael, The Future Gamer
Everyone meet Michael, a visual representation of the future gamer.
We at OnlineCasino.ca conducted a study and predicted how avid gamers could look in the next 20 years if they didn't change their lifestyle habits. From sleep deprivation and dehydration, to lack of vitamin D, digital eye strain and 'playstation thumb' - these are just some of the physical implications of spending hours online, in a gaming chair, away from sunlight and physical activity. So how serious is this?
We reveal Michael, the future gamer of 2040.

The Reality of the Issue
According to Limelight, the average gamer spends 6 hours each week playing online video games which is an increase of 19.3% in the last year. Gamers in the UK play the most (7.15 hours per week) with many even becoming addicts and spending up to 18 hours a day online.
Video game 'addiction' is now recognized as an official psychological disorder by WHO (World Health Organization), and referred to 'gaming disorder' - despite opposition from the industry and academics.
What is Gaming Disorder?
According to the World Health Organization, 'gaming disorder' will be distinguished by "impaired control over gaming, increasing priority given to gaming over other activities to the extent that gaming takes precedence over other interests and daily activities, and continuation or escalation of gaming despite the occurrence of negative consequences".
With this being recognized as a worldwide issue, and gaming hours on the rise - just what impact does this have on our physical appearance and health?
We conducted in-depth research into every physical impact on the body and health of a human being from spending too much time indoors and online. And here is what we found out...






Head
Black Rings Under Eyes
Increased periods of screen activity whilst game playing over a long period of time can cause black rings to form in the skin under your eyes.
Bloodshot Eyes aka Digital Eye Strain
Extended periods of time also causes Computer Vision Syndrome or Digital Eye Strain which presents itself as dry and bloodshot eyes. This causes irritation, redness, the inability to focus and double or blurred vision with the brightness, resolution, glare and quality of your screen affecting this.
Hair Loss
Vitamin D is essential to our health, but because it is absorbed mostly from sun exposure and certain foods our future gamer is certainly lacking in it. Because the body is lacking vitamin D it means hair loss occurs, new and old hair follicles are not stimulated and new hair growth is stunted.
Indent in Skull
Consistent, light pressure built up over a number of years could cause an indent in the hair, skin and skull if stressed long enough. This means that overuse of headsets during gameplay over twenty years could cause deformation.
Hairy Ears
Due to poor air quality and a lack of circulation, more hair is likely to grow around the ears. This is a defence mechanism the body is creating to protect from dirt and debris it no longer feels is removed.

Hands
Playstation Thumb & Blistered Fingertips
Known as 'Playstation Thumb', Onycholysis is a nail disorder caused by repetitive trauma such as tapping fingernails on a keyboard or controller causes the fingernail to loosen from its nail bed. These repetitive motions from game playing can also induce pain from muscle stiffness and blisters in the fingertips from overuse.
Nintendo Arthritis
Nintendo Arthritis aka 'Nintendinitis' is a new type of repetitive strain injury that causes ulceration and calluses on the hands. If these are intertwined with key nerves as they develop they will not be able to be surgically removed.
Trigger Finger
Trigger Finger, sometimes known as Gamers Thumb, is a term given when you put a strain on the tendons in your thumb or ring finger for long periods of time. This causes them to become so inflamed from gaming that you suffer pain, limited movement, and a locking sensation when trying to straighten or bend your finger.
First-Person Shooter
First-person Shooter or Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is a condition caused by repetitive motion and overuse of a computer mouse and keyboard. This compresses the carpal tunnel, causing nerve and weakness to the palmar abduction. This causes a burning sensation in the fingers and thumb as well as sharp pains in the arm and shoulder. If this is not treated in time this can lead to numbness and eventually tumours on the wrists with amputation as the only effective treatment.

Body
Hunchback & Rounded Shoulders
A condition that slowly develops over time, a hyperextended neck, rounded shoulders and hunchback will start as a dull pain occasionally and work its way from your neck to your hands and back as the strains slowly create a bend in the neck which creates the hunchback. This is caused by elongated periods of time sitting in uncomfortable positions without stretching or counteracting with regular exercise.
Muscular Stiffness
Staying tense in these uncomfortable positions for extended periods of time will also cause pain in your shoulders. Excessive gaming and sleep deprivation adding to raised and tense shoulders which over time develop into a repetitive strain injury.
Obesity
With intense periods of gaming, nutrition is the first thing to go out of the window. Not only are you idle for long periods of time but if you do remember to eat it will most likely be a quick, easy and calorific takeaway alongside plenty of fizzy drinks so you can get back to gaming on a sugar high. So over the years, the pounds are going to pile on!
Eczema
Red, inflamed skin can flare up due to triggered foods, dry air and stress amongst other things. During intense gaming sessions when continual stress can occur the body releases a hormone called cortisol which can increase inflammation throughout the body and cause an eczema flare-up.

Body
Pale Skin
Lacking in Vitamin D and B-12 due to lack of sunlight and consuming too much junk food means our future gamer has pasty skin. A symptom of B-12 deficiency, pale skin is caused by the reduction of red blood cells.
Varicose Veins
Varicose veins can form when you remain in the same position for prolonged periods of time. This causes valves of your veins not to function properly, allowing blood to leak and flow backwards. Causing the blood to collect and swell.
Swollen Ankles
Due to sitting for long periods of time, ankles will become swollen. This is because when inactive for increasing amounts of time muscles cannot pump fluid back towards the heart, so fluid and blood retains around the ankles causing swelling and discomfort.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4

A Closer Look...
 

Zed

The Bullish Bear.
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
19,048
Likes
20,459
Location
Watching the Sideshow!
#52
Sounds rational, but what if a particular someone is amongst a subset of those who get ZERO, while everyone around you, including illegals, are getting FRNs?

Mark of the Beast?

Some are already being starved out, and most of them are Christians...
The concept is that everyone gets it but the reality is that those @ the top of the food chain are paying themselves. I guess net zero might be in the middle income area where you basically get taxed what you get from the UBI.
 

GOLDBRIX

God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh
Midas Member
Midas Supporter
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
16,797
Likes
24,466
#53
I don't buy the whole AI will put us all out of work thing, basically it is the same argument people used against mechanization and the industrial revolution. All that happened is a whole new range of jobs that we never considered before opened up and we all moved up the food chain.
I would contend that fewer and fewer would "move up the food chain" as technology advances. (And has been proven through the age of the assembly line).
To a point where machines and computers would eventually self-repair and even reformulate into smarter, faster, smaller.
It wasn't that long ago computer scientists found nano-bots creating their own language between themselves and away from the human "inventor(s)", and the 'experiment" had to be shut down.
DYODD
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
3,346
Likes
3,125
#54
....The non-producers could smile and wave to the poor fecker that is going to work.
Nobody will be smiling. By way of first, deflation, and then next, hyperinflation, everyone will be poor just as tyranny becomes obvious to all.

In the Tytler cycle, the next stage after tyranny is slavery. The slaves will be given a work program, they or their families will need to show their worth to their rulers.

You may get a few check sent to you right now, but that's very unlikely to continue more than a few years if not months.

N. Korea was, and still is the end state or gov't system they want installed in every nation.

Only the very stupid believe some gov't program, like UBI, will protect them.

Few people in our nation, let alone around the world, have read the BOR.
A situation like this has never ended well for producers.
It's will be even worse for the non-producers.
 

Zed

The Bullish Bear.
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
19,048
Likes
20,459
Location
Watching the Sideshow!
#55
Let's look at the "rich" and decide which earned their profits and which did not.
What about we fix the .gov sponsored issues that allow unearned profit rather than allowing .gov to steal to redress the imbalance they created.
 

<SLV>

Platinum Bling
Sr Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
5,728
Likes
9,036
#56
They will pay for it with all of the seized assets from the sealed indictments. Hang the traitors and distribute their wealth among the populous.
 

D-FENZ

Gold Chaser
Midas Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
3,128
Likes
7,723
#57
The argument that technology and automation will kill the need for human beings doesn't square with the facts. As a percentage of the world's population, more people are more productive and gainfully employed now than ever before (temporary virus hysteria notwithstanding). Meanwhile, technology and automation is the best it's ever been. Record employment all around.

But pay everyone simply because they exist? Where's the incentive? And who decides who gets what? We know how that deal works.

Not sustainable.
 

oldgaranddad

Platinum Bling
Platinum Bling
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
6,397
Likes
13,349
Location
On the top shelf.
#58
Universal Basic Income (UBI) is nothing more than a fancy phrase for "currency debasement" if everyone, without exception gets $1,000 then the currency as a whole has been debased by that much.

If there are caveats as to who gets the UBI then it is a targeted wealth redistribution program coupled with currency debasement.
 

WillA2

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2019
Messages
1,855
Likes
4,871
#59
Universal Basic Income (UBI) is nothing more than a fancy phrase for "currency debasement" if everyone, without exception gets $1,000 then the currency as a whole has been debased by that much.
Creates a new "zero" on the scale. The CBs put their finger on the scale and then tare the apparatus for the new inflation.
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Sr Site Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
56,068
Likes
109,689
Location
Rocky Mountains
#60

skychief

enthusiastic stacker
Silver Miner
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
994
Likes
1,460
Location
California Coast
#61
Star Trek has promoted a cashless society since 1966.
Star Trek was ahead of their time.

There have been many movies since then that had a cashless society.

The creepiest ones is where people had their credit cards implanted in their forearm, and they could do money transfers by holding their arm up to a scanner. . .or someone else's arm! Very orwellian and creepy.
 

Cigarlover

Midas Member
Midas Member
Midas Supporter
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
9,552
Likes
19,410
#63
Star Trek was ahead of their time.

There have been many movies since then that had a cashless society.

The creepiest ones is where people had their credit cards implanted in their forearm, and they could do money transfers by holding their arm up to a scanner. . .or someone else's arm! Very orwellian and creepy.
So could you just cut their arm off, hold it up to a scanner and steal their money?
 

GOLDBRIX

God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh
Midas Member
Midas Supporter
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
16,797
Likes
24,466
#66

Uglytruth

Midas Member
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Messages
13,838
Likes
28,749
#67
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/a...have-discussion-about-guaranteed-basic-income

Fed President: We Should Have A Discussion About Guaranteed Basic Income
BY TYLER DURDEN
WEDNESDAY, JAN 13, 2021 - 20:16
Earlier today we briefly touched upon the recent chaos in 10Y yields and Eurodollars, sparked by growing source of much consternation and confusion at the Fed, namely the timing of the next QE taper, which if the 2013 example holds, would lead to a catastrophic market crash. We quoted DB's Jim Reid who wrote that "we’ve only had 7 business days this year and we’ve already had a full 360 degree tapering debate played out by the Fed." It's not just tapering, mind you: the same clueless hacks who brought the global economy beyond the edge of collapse and only the injection of $4 billion in liquidity per day ($120BN/30) is keeping everything from imploding, are just as confused about when to hike rates. Consider the following recent statements:

Bloomberg also picked up on this point and echoed our observations, writing that "Federal Reserve officials are beginning to split over when they may need to start pulling back on their massive monetary stimulus, drawing nervous glances from investors who remember how markets were roiled during the 2013 taper tantrum."
In the past week, four of the Fed’s 18 policy makers have publicly raised the prospect they may discuss reducing bond buying -- currently running at $120 billion a month -- by year’s end. In contrast, several others have called the debate premature and Fed Vice Chairman Richard Clarida, the most senior central banker to weigh in, has said he doesn’t expect any changes before 2022.​

He may not expect it, but traders are: investors ramped up yields on Treasuries to nearly 1.20%, before two strong auctions helped ease rates which were redlining to the point that stocks started selling off. It also prompted coordinated verbal intervention by two of the Fed's top three officials: Fed vice chair Clarida and governor Lael Brainard spoke on Wednesday and each sought to assure markets that no tapering, and certainly no rate hikes are coming any time soon.
To wit, Brainard pushed back against suggestions the central bank could taper its bond-buying program later this year, arguing the U.S. economy will need that monetary support for “quite some time.”
“The economy is far away from our goals in terms of both employment and inflation, and even under an optimistic outlook, it will take time to achieve substantial further progress,” Brainard said Wednesday in a virtual speech to the Canadian Association for Business Economics. “Given my baseline outlook, I expect that the current pace of purchases will remain appropriate for quite some time.”​
Clarida went further - as in beyond the purposefully nebulous "quite some time" - and said that the Fed will not raise interest rates until inflation has been at 2% for a year.
“I went into this quite skeptical about makeup strategies as a practical tool for central banks. And you’ll see that there really is not much of a make-up element in this at all, other than we’re not going to lift off until we get 2% inflation for a year.”​
Those two are the doves. What about the hawks?

One among them is Atlanta Fed president, Raphael Bostic, who felt the need to make amends for his blasphemy from last week when he said last Thursday that the U.S. economy could be stronger than expected by midyear, which could lead to an earlier-than-expected tapering of bond purchases.
“In our statement, we said we wanted to make significant progress towards the goal. I don’t think we necessarily have to get to the goal,” Bostic said in a televised interview with Fox Business recorded Wednesday and broadcast Thursday.
He then shocked markets when he said that “I’m definitely open to the possibility that we may pull it back sooner than people expect” and added that “coming into the summertime, going into the fall, this economy should be rolling pretty well, if the vaccine distribution happens in an appropriate way. If it rolls well, we may see a lot more strength than I think some people are projecting.
The implication was clear: tapering could begin as soon as this fall.
Oops: bonds immediately puked at this mere hint that tapering could start in just a few months, and sent 10Y yields surging until the Fed entered full jawboning and damage control mode.
Yes bizarrely, not having learned his lesson, on Monday Bostic once again hit the newswires with his surprising forecast that the Fed could hike rates as soon as mid-2022 or early 2023.
“I do think there is some possibility that the economy could come back a bit stronger than some are expecting,” Bostic said on Monday.
“If that happens, I’m prepared to support pulling back and recalibrating a bit of our accommodation and then considering moving the policy rate. But I don’t see that happening in 2021. A whole lot would have to happen for us to get there. And then we will see into 2022, maybe the second half of 2022 or even 2023 where that might be more in play,” Bostic says in virtual discussion hosted by the Rotary Club of Atlanta​
And since tapering would need to take place at least 6-9 months before this, the rates selloff resumed. It's also why both Clarida and Brainard had to step up today and explain there would be no rate hikes until 2023 at the earliest.
Well, since "three times is enemy action", Bostic - who wasn't done - and made a third appearance within a week the very next day, took every precaution not to screw it up again, which is why - wearing his best viral expert hat - he said that the distribution of vaccines in the U.S. is off to a slow start and continued delays would lead to a weaker, more protracted economic recovery.
"This is a huge logistical challenge and there have been hiccups to start,” he says. If there are delays, “then that real recovery is not going to start for that much longer and it will be more difficult and more protracted."
“Until the public-health issues get resolved, the economy will not be able to just move forward in a robust and strong way as possible" he said adding that getting the population vaccinated is “hugely important."​
“We might actually see rebounds in inflation that are stronger than what people are expecting and we have got to leave ourselves open to that possibility. I’m going to be watching very closely to see how strongly inflation rebounds and I am hopeful we will get to our 2% target faster rather than slower."
Yes, yes... all predictable damage control for a central bank which is only obsessed with keeping risk assets high and yields low.
But what did surprise us, is what he said at end of that presentation - which incidentally was in the form of a virtual Q&A session hosted by none other than Goldman Sachs. Because what the Atlanta Fed president briefly touched upon next, is precisely the endgame: namely guaranteed government income to those who want it... for life. Also known as Universal Basic Income.
While Bostic was laconic and did not say much, what he did saw was sufficient revealing to know what's about to come next:
"The guaranteed basic income discussion is an important one. I think that conversation is one we should continue to have and think about."
What's universal basic income, you ask? Think helicopter money and magic money tree, on steroids.
And with that all discussions about rate hikes, "taperings", or anything else for that matter is moot, because the only way the conversation about guaranteed basic income - where the Treasury sells unlimited amounts of debt to "fund" UBI, debt which is purchased by the Fed - makes any sense is if the Fed ensures that rates can never again rise. Which is why all those traders panicking about rising yields, or CTAs who are now shorting 10Y yields, and as the following chart from Goldman confirms, they are - just as we said they would once yields rose above 1.10%...

...can relax: yes, yields can go up, they may hit 1.50%, even 2.00% or slightly more, but that's it because at that point the Fed will have to regain control, and it will, as the alternative is the bursting of the biggest bubble in history and the end of the western way of life.
 

Casey Jones

Ridin' that train
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
2,804
Likes
4,242
Location
Down the road from the Kaczynski ranch
#68
This is the FED...now...supposedly the guarantor of the value of the dollar...talking choom-cloud social engineering.
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Seeker
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
531
Likes
587
#69
Thoughts? Best arguments against or for? Tubes, videos, articles post anything.

My natural tendency is on the side of no way will it work but I've seen some smart people speak in favor of it. That confuses me a little, I'd have thought that the problems where self evident.

The pope is talking about it so you have to assume that it is coming. I wanna get my argument down ahead of that game.
I think it's a terrible idea for economic, moral and spiritual reasons.

However - forget all of that.

UBI is just a cover story for MMT. Every UBI proposal includes MMT. MMT = money printing = eventual hyperinflation.
 

Casey Jones

Ridin' that train
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
2,804
Likes
4,242
Location
Down the road from the Kaczynski ranch
#70
Thoughts? Best arguments against or for? Tubes, videos, articles post anything.

My natural tendency is on the side of no way will it work but I've seen some smart people speak in favor of it. That confuses me a little, I'd have thought that the problems where self evident.

The pope is talking about it so you have to assume that it is coming. I wanna get my argument down ahead of that game.
If they give money away for free...that money will have no value.

It derives its value from scarcity.

If everyone in the country gets, say, $2000 a month, ON TOP of what they earn...do you think that, say, rent prices are going to remain where they are? Rents, prices, are a market-rationing tool. Everyone wants a nice apartment.

Not everyone can have one. So they're held out to the highest bidder.

Now, everyone has $2000 MORE in household disposable income. PLUS...there's gonna be increases in taxes to partly defray this burst of money printing. So, landlord's tax liability will go up.

So he will not be able to do anything other than charge more. That $800 apartment becomes a $1800 apartment. Maybe more, because now all the basement-dwelling Gen Z types, have FREE MONEY! MOAR pressure on rent prices...and more price INCREASES.

Same with EVERY necessity and commonly-desired item. Automobiles. Food. Clothing. Nothing is going to escape it.

More money chasing the same quantity of goods...price rises. RAPID price rises.
 

WillA2

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2019
Messages
1,855
Likes
4,871
#71
If they give money away for free...that money will have no value.

It derives its value from scarcity.

If everyone in the country gets, say, $2000 a month, ON TOP of what they earn...do you think that, say, rent prices are going to remain where they are? Rents, prices, are a market-rationing tool. Everyone wants a nice apartment.

Not everyone can have one. So they're held out to the highest bidder.

Now, everyone has $2000 MORE in household disposable income. PLUS...there's gonna be increases in taxes to partly defray this burst of money printing. So, landlord's tax liability will go up.

So he will not be able to do anything other than charge more. That $800 apartment becomes a $1800 apartment. Maybe more, because now all the basement-dwelling Gen Z types, have FREE MONEY! MOAR pressure on rent prices...and more price INCREASES.

Same with EVERY necessity and commonly-desired item. Automobiles. Food. Clothing. Nothing is going to escape it.

More money chasing the same quantity of goods...price rises. RAPID price rises.
A monetary tool that aides in societal suicide.
 

Uglytruth

Midas Member
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Messages
13,838
Likes
28,749
#72
I think it's a terrible idea for economic, moral and spiritual reasons.

However - forget all of that.

UBI is just a cover story for MMT. Every UBI proposal includes MMT. MMT = money printing = eventual hyperinflation.
Almost seems like a trap to get people dependent on free shit & .gov handouts. :winks2:
 

<SLV>

Platinum Bling
Sr Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
5,728
Likes
9,036
#73
I think it's a terrible idea for economic, moral and spiritual reasons.

However - forget all of that.

UBI is just a cover story for MMT. Every UBI proposal includes MMT. MMT = money printing = eventual hyperinflation.
The sooner the better. I hope they give us thousands every month. The idiots will buy gaming consoles and sneakers. The wise will turn it into real money.
 

Someone_else

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Midas Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
3,304
Likes
4,865
#75
The wise will turn it into real money.
My brother in law has EBT benefits, and I use it for pizza ingredients. The money goes to food for people.