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WAR FOR TAIWAN?

wallew

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WAR for TAIWAN?

FRANKFURTER
For all of 2020, the USA govt and media has very strong rhetoric against China, and has now implemented a wide array of sanctions. China has responded with strong rhetoric and a few sanctions. China has desired to regain total control of Taiwan: whereas the USA has desired to prevent this. How such a conflict will end, and when, is moot at this time. But it raises key questions.

If China sends troops to Taiwan, are Americans prepared for a war with China to "liberate" Taiwan? How would this play out for Americans? Any war with China will be on a massive scale, and nuclear: unprecedented in history. Are Americans prepared for their massive deaths from such a war? What about the nuclear fallout that will poison the air and ocean for unknown time? What would Americans hope to gain: there is simply nothing of value in Taiwan for America. China can retaliate to ensure America is on the receiving end of nuclear missiles. etc.

So let's hear from Americans. Are you prepared to fight the most costly, the most deadly, most destructive war in history over an island of no value to you.

SUZNV
No, Western Countries would happily seize all oversea China personal assets and use that for compensation for loss in a sanction with China. This means all the red capitalists would see their assets value evaporated and food and energy would be a problem. I wonder if Xi can demand such a sacrifice from the internal CCP themselves for Taiwan. Why should anyone care about the enemy's assets or loans?

And with the tech innovation evolving speed nowadays, soon China would be far far behind and would they pay Russian oil with RMB? US would be happy, Japan, Korea would be happy, Germany would be happy. Can China have great innovation from sticks without resources?

Deng was able to make the border war with Vietnam in 1979 to consolidate power because China had nothing to lose back then after the great lead forward and the great culture revolution (and partly most of the Vietnamese battalions was in Cambodia)

Ward Smith
I've had Frankie on ignore but I can tell by the title he's back to doing the wumaodang's bidding. I've been following the news in Taiwan, they are the ones who released a lot of the most incriminating Biden dirt including full backgrounds on the parties the American media ignored (well let's be honest, the media could not have ignored more if they tried, which they did).

Taiwan knows full well Biden will sell them down the river, it was arranged in advance. This means China gets TSMC, which means every single semiconductor you've heard of and a lot you haven't is going to be under their complete control. That is the prize. America can't build a Class 10 Fab overnight and we don't have the support infrastructure for post fab work anymore, thanks to years of neglect. We certainly have the best chip designers in the world, I used to work at one, but everyone went fabless in the 90's and TSMC was the beneficiary.

Gerry Maddoux


On 11/8/2020 at 2:26 AM, frankfurter said:
So let's hear from Americans. Are you prepared to fight the most costly, the most deadly, most destructive war in history over an island of no value to you?​
Only if Taiwan would like to become a state (USA) within the next thirty days (which they might).

On 11/9/2020 at 10:24 AM, Ward Smith said:
Taiwan knows full well Biden will sell them down the river, it was arranged in advance. This means China gets TSMC, which means every single semiconductor you've heard of and a lot you haven't is going to be under their complete control.​
Ward's entirely right: the damn Taiwan Semiconductor is worth going to war for, by itself.

On 11/8/2020 at 2:26 AM, frankfurter said:
Are you prepared to fight the most costly, the most deadly, most destructive war in history over an island of no value to you?​
Bring it on. Viva Taiwan, USA!


https://community.oilprice.com/topic/21504-war-for-taiwan/
 

FunnyMoney

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Look at Taiwan on a map; can someone explain to me how this is America’s problem?

We owe 20+ trillion to international banking forces (or at least the FED has prior agreements to the effect).
Mercenary work has been part of the payment process for decades.

Or, are you saying, payments have been made, tax money has been spent and blood was (and will be) shed in duress?
 

Mujahideen

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We owe 20+ trillion to international banking forces (or at least the FED has prior agreements to the effect).
Mercenary work has been part of the payment process for decades.

Or, are you saying, payments have been made, tax money has been spent and blood was (and will be) shed in duress?

I chuckle every time people say ThE dEbT iSnT gOiNg tO bE rEpAiD.
 

wallew

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So, once China destroys or captures TAIWAN, and the shipments of all semi conductors STOP IMMEDIATELY.

Then all your electronic devices will slowly start to wear out.

YOU can't get any new computers/phones/etc to replace the failing ones?

That's OK by you?
 
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FunnyMoney

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So, once China destroys or captures TAIWAN...

That's OK by you?

So you are assuming Americans, Mexicans and Canadians are unable to produce high quality semi conductors?

I'm not sure if any nation in North America should be going to war to protect another nation on the opposite side of the planet. I hesitate when others claim the end justifies the means.

I'm certainly opposed to a war front for reasons of consumer commerce advantage or electronic hardware trade details.
 

nickndfl

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The chinks can take Taiwan without firing a shot the same way they infiltrated American government. The Taiwanese will vote for it in another rigged election.
 

gnome

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The chinks can take Taiwan without firing a shot the same way they infiltrated American government. The Taiwanese will vote for it in another rigged election.

The Chinese tried it and it backfired - Taiwanese voters roundly rejected China-backed candidates.
Also, inspiring confidence in current government is that they only have 12 total deaths from Covid out of 23M population.

No secret around here, I think Trump is garbage. One of the few things I'll give him credit for is positive relations with Taiwan.
I like the country a lot, have been there several times over the last 10 years and have good friends there.
Trump recently sold Taiwan enough weapons to make China think twice before invading.
The other thing that would have to be mentioned is Japan, which is 9th biggest military spender - only $18B less than Russia.
Taiwan was a Japanese colony at one time, and they are not gonna watch China just start gobbling up islands.
Of course, US bases all over Japan. So if it's on, it's on.

As for TSMC, they are a semiconductor beast. I trade the stock a bit, but very light on positions right now.
Trump got them to commit to making a factory on US soil, Texas, I think, so that gives us a measure of security.
 

wallew

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So you are assuming Americans, Mexicans and Canadians are unable to produce high quality semi conductors?

I'm not sure if any nation in North America should be going to war to protect another nation on the opposite side of the planet. I hesitate when others claim the end justifies the means.

I'm certainly opposed to a war front for reasons of consumer commerce advantage or electronic hardware trade details.

well apparently you chose to NOT READ what I posted. So let's try a small part of what I posted.


Taiwan knows full well Biden will sell them down the river, it was arranged in advance. This means China gets TSMC, which means every single semiconductor you've heard of and a lot you haven't is going to be under their complete control. That is the prize. America can't build a Class 10 Fab overnight and we don't have the support infrastructure for post fab work anymore, thanks to years of neglect. We certainly have the best chip designers in the world, I used to work at one, but everyone went fabless in the 90's and TSMC was the beneficiary.
 

Unca Walt

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Look at Taiwan on a map; can someone explain to me how this is America’s problem?


Somebody just did. I'll repost it.

The red highlight is mine; in Mandarin, it is literally "fifty cents party" <-- These are government shills that post on the Internet touting gummint propaganda.

It is the whole friggin' world's problem, Muj. Yours too. You are affected directly. This is reality and realpolitik, and not land mass.

Ward Smith
I've had Frankie on ignore but I can tell by the title he's back to doing the wumaodang's bidding. I've been following the news in Taiwan, they are the ones who released a lot of the most incriminating Biden dirt including full backgrounds on the parties the American media ignored (well let's be honest, the media could not have ignored more if they tried, which they did).

Taiwan knows full well Biden will sell them down the river, it was arranged in advance. This means China gets TSMC, which means every single semiconductor you've heard of and a lot you haven't is going to be under their complete control. That is the prize. America can't build a Class 10 Fab overnight and we don't have the support infrastructure for post fab work anymore, thanks to years of neglect. We certainly have the best chip designers in the world, I used to work at one, but everyone went fabless in the 90's and TSMC was the beneficiary.
 
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Mujahideen

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Somebody just did. I'll repost it.

The red highlight is mine; in Mandarin, it is literally "fifty cents party" <-- These are government shills that post on the Internet touting gummint propaganda.

It is the whole friggin' world's problem, Muj. Yours too. You are affected directly.

Ward Smith
I've had Frankie on ignore but I can tell by the title he's back to doing the wumaodang's bidding. I've been following the news in Taiwan, they are the ones who released a lot of the most incriminating Biden dirt including full backgrounds on the parties the American media ignored (well let's be honest, the media could not have ignored more if they tried, which they did).

Taiwan knows full well Biden will sell them down the river, it was arranged in advance. This means China gets TSMC, which means every single semiconductor you've heard of and a lot you haven't is going to be under their complete control. That is the prize. America can't build a Class 10 Fab overnight and we don't have the support infrastructure for post fab work anymore, thanks to years of neglect. We certainly have the best chip designers in the world, I used to work at one, but everyone went fabless in the 90's and TSMC was the beneficiary.

Should American taxpayer dollars be spent and our youths blood be spilled in a Chinese civil war so that we can get more semiconductors?
 

Fatrat

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We die for that other nation, why change now.
 

Unca Walt

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Should American taxpayer dollars be spent and our youths blood be spilled in a Chinese civil war so that we can get more semiconductors?
Let me try again:

Due to the treason of Obama in his jihad to "fundamentally transform America", we no longer are the manufacturers of leading-edge electronics. Nothing is left of our lead.

Due to the treason of Biden in his naked lust for riches, China has technology they would not have dreamed of without it being taken from Americans by that evil shit.

YOUR lunch is owned by the chicoms if they take Taiwan <-- assimilate that if you can.

You flippantly call the entire electronics industries of mankind being owned and completely controlled by the chicoms as "getting more semiconductors". We have to bring back what Clinton and Obama have destroyed in America and built up in China.
 

Mujahideen

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Let me try again:

Due to the treason of Obama in his jihad to "fundamentally transform America", we no longer are the manufacturers of leading-edge electronics. Nothing is left of our lead.

Due to the treason of Biden in his naked lust for riches, China has technology they would not have dreamed of without it being taken from Americans by that evil shit.

YOUR lunch is owned by the chicoms if they take Taiwan <-- assimilate that if you can.

You flippantly call the entire electronics industries of mankind being owned and completely controlled by the chicoms as "getting more semiconductors". We have to bring back what Clinton and Obama have destroyed in America and built up in China.


Is that a yes, no or maybe?
 

gnome

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Taiwan processor chip maker to set up $3.5 billion U.S. arm
Tue, November 10, 2020, 11:13 PM GMT+9
TAIPEI, Taiwan (AP) — A Taiwanese maker of processor chips for Apple Inc. and other customers plans to invest $3.5 billion to set up its second U.S. manufacturing site amid American concern about relying too heavily on sources in Asia for high-tech components.

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., the world’s biggest contract producer of semiconductors, said its board on Tuesday approved the plan for the facility in Arizona. It gave no details of what functions it will perform.

U.S. officials worry their country relies too too heavily on factories in Taiwan, South Korea and China for chips used in smartphones, medical equipment and other products. Anxiety increased after the coronavirus pandemic disrupted global shipping.

The Wall Street Journal reported in May that TSMC was talking with Apple, one of its biggest customers, about a possible U.S. factory.

TSMC also operates a semiconductor wafer fabrication facility in Camas, Washington, and design centers in San Jose, California, and Austin, Texas.

Last year, the U.S. Government Accountability Office said in a report that relying on foreign chip producers reduced costs but “can also make it harder" for the military to get supplies if governments cut off access.

TSMC is among semiconductor suppliers whose business has been disrupted by U.S. sanctions imposed on Chinese companies in a feud with Beijing over technology and security.

TSMC and other global vendors are barred from using U.S. technology to make chips for Huawei Technologies Ltd., one of the Taiwanese company’s biggest customers. That blocks most manufacturing, including of chips designed by Huawei, because their production lines need U.S. technology and components.
 

wallew

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GNOME,

THANK YOU. Nothing could say it better.

Having said that I suspect that MUJ won't read any of that either.

Too old, Too blinded by his own rage, and Too stupid to realize it

this whole story reminds me of our current situation with China being the only country manufacturing OUR MEDICINES.

Yeah, that's gonna work well in the future... And I wonder what MUJ will do when China stops shipping the meds HE TAKES for old age to survive?

I doubt it would be a yes, a no or a maybe!
 

Mujahideen

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Having said that I suspect that MUJ won't read any of that either.

Too old, Too blinded by his own rage, and Too stupid to realize it

What rage? All I asked is if it’s worth us going to war over. I haven’t gotten an answer from anyone.

We definitely need to take China’s tit out of our collective mouths if we want to be a sovereign nation. I don’t see how a war with China would solve that.

The Chinese/taiwanese aren’t better than us, we could easily make our own semiconductors eventually if the nation put its mind to it. Potentially starting ww3 to help a losing side of a civil war in Asia is overstepping our bounds by a lot.
 
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wallew

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TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.

YES - NUKE THEM FROM ORBIT

Be Sure nuke it from orbit its the only way.jpg


it's the only way to get compliance FROM CHINA, because other wise it will be 'everything else is normal' for USA being the scape goat
 

gnome

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What rage? All I asked is if it’s worth us going to war over. I haven’t gotten an answer from anyone.

Not worth it for either side.

The battlefield increasingly for technological dominance - AI & automation.
TSMC is not a pawn, maybe a bishop or knight in that chess game.
 

Unca Walt

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Is that a yes, no or maybe?
All depends if you are Winnie the Pooh or a Patriot

If you think in surface feelings... then it is no.

If you realize that the world is on a critical cusp, and Taiwan is a huge lever that if used against humanity by the chicoms, Muj's life would be left to the whims of those who want us dead... then it is yes.

How much can you think of beyond the otiose? Hm?

Try... this time.
 

Mujahideen

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All depends if you are Winnie the Pooh or a Patriot

If you think in surface feelings... then it is no.

If you realize that the world is on a critical cusp, and Taiwan is a huge lever that if used against humanity by the chicoms, Muj's life would be left to the whims of those who want us dead... then it is yes.

How much can you think of beyond the otiose? Hm?

Try... this time.

If you’re a patriot, then you should realize that the fight for America isn’t with the republic of China and the people’s republic of China, it’s against our own politicians on our own soil who put us in this bad position in the first place.

If you want your grand kids to be thrown into the meat grinder and to be used as cannon fodder in a war that shouldn’t even involve Americans in the first place, and a war that we likely won’t even win, then you don’t property value their lives.

For all that money that it would have cost us to do that we could rebuild a manufacturing base back in America.

What would happen after such a war even if we were to win? We would still be sucking Taiwans tit.
 

dozer99

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The capture of Taiwan would not stop China's aggressive moves. China doesn't just quit after it has taken back that island. Just a few miles northeast is the island of Okinawa which China has claimed over the years was ancestral china. To the south is the Philippines and china would love nothing more than to get their hands on that piece of real estate.

You see, with the capture of Taiwan, China winds up with control of the Philippine sea and the island of Okinawa is just the next stone in a long line of stepping stones. Control of the western pacific is the goal (hell they learned that from the Japanese in WWII).

It becomes our problem because if you think for a minute that the U.N. would do anything to stop this (they stand to gain much) you are sadly mistaken. Unless we want to hope and pray that China stops with just one Island than we might want to step in (like we have for many years) and stop their ideas of world wide conquest.

Some of the other island that the CCP has floated as long term goals - Guam and the entire Marianas chain, Midway, Palau, and Wake.

If you look at a map, it might just start to make sense.
 

Mujahideen

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China can barely keep their own country together, they aren’t going to go after the rest of Asia. They are a lot smarter than that.

If you want to understand the Chinese read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars#First_Opium_War

Their goal is to take over economically, and historically they have been good at it so much so that the western powers had to resort to illegally selling them drugs just to help even out the trade balance. They fought back and lost Hong Kong to the British...

The People’s republic of China would love to sell us all the semiconductors we want, let’s not kid ourselves. We are China’s biggest customer by far.
 

Unca Walt

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Never mind.

Ni twai dhou.
 

hammerhead

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China can barely keep their own country together, they aren’t going to go after the rest of Asia. They are a lot smarter than that.

If you want to understand the Chinese read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars#First_Opium_War

Their goal is to take over economically, and historically they have been good at it so much so that the western powers had to resort to illegally selling them drugs just to help even out the trade balance. They fought back and lost Hong Kong to the British...

The People’s republic of China would love to sell us all the semiconductors we want, let’s not kid ourselves. We are China’s biggest customer by far.
Speaking of being the biggest customers if Chinee, I had a thought yesterday while listening to a local commentary on the radio about the Toys for Tots drive and how successful that has been, for Chinee.
 

FunnyMoney

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well apparently you chose to NOT READ what I posted. So let's try a small part of what I posted.
Taiwan knows full well Biden will sell them down the river, it was arranged in advance. This means China gets TSMC, which means every single semiconductor you've heard of ....

No, you are wrong. I did read it. I chose to read it and I read it in it's entirety. But since you said that I did not, out of respect for you, I re-read it. I read it again and read all the posts afterward.

After all of that, I still stand by my statements. You are assuming we can't catch up or improve our own capabilities in the computer chip area of high tech and those things which use them. I disagree.

In addition, it will be less costly to do that than it would be to go to war over the issue, even if you only factor in the material costs and not those in blood and grief.
 

Fatrat

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The capture of Taiwan would not stop China's aggressive moves. China doesn't just quit after it has taken back that island. Just a few miles northeast is the island of Okinawa which China has claimed over the years was ancestral china. To the south is the Philippines and china would love nothing more than to get their hands on that piece of real estate.

You see, with the capture of Taiwan, China winds up with control of the Philippine sea and the island of Okinawa is just the next stone in a long line of stepping stones. Control of the western pacific is the goal (hell they learned that from the Japanese in WWII).

It becomes our problem because if you think for a minute that the U.N. would do anything to stop this (they stand to gain much) you are sadly mistaken. Unless we want to hope and pray that China stops with just one Island than we might want to step in (like we have for many years) and stop their ideas of world wide conquest.

Some of the other island that the CCP has floated as long term goals - Guam and the entire Marianas chain, Midway, Palau, and Wake.

If you look at a map, it might just start to make sense.
We have our time as an Empire, China wants its turn...
 

Unca Walt

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No, you are wrong. I did read it. I chose to read it and I read it in it's entirety. But since you said that I did not, out of respect for you, I re-read it. I read it again and read all the posts afterward.

After all of that, I still stand by my statements. You are assuming we can't catch up or improve our own capabilities in the computer chip area of high tech and those things which use them. I disagree.

In addition, it will be less costly to do that than it would be to go to war over the issue, even if you only factor in the material costs and not those in blood and grief.

Fair enough response, FM. I will address where I think your sincere reply has a gaping hole:

The reason I do not believe we can just start up and match the lead the traitors (Pelosi/Biden/Obama/Kerry/et al.) have given the CCP in electronic tech is that I am an EE, and I know what goes into it. I was an integrated circuit chip designer for IBM.

We NO LONGER HAVE the tools to make the tools. <-- That is the sticky root of the problem.

Can we get it back? Why, sure. But it took YEARS for the traitorous crooks in gummint to shut down our leading-edge design/fabrication factories and critically important infrastructure, and it will take YEARS to get them back up.

There is no finger-snap fix for the problem. It can be made back... but it will take a long time.
 
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FunnyMoney

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Fair enough response, FM. I will address where I think your sincere reply has a gaping hole:
....

The years you speak of may be few or many. With enough desire, those years could end up being months. Either way, those delays and the issues that will result from them, if there are - should be in no way considered valuable enough to shed blood over.

Once again, the end does not justify the means and I'm not willing to support a war footing over the material concern and believe the use of our military has been entirely counter-productive over the last many decades and this thread's promotion of the continuation of that falls in line with the simlar recent practices of going to war over wealth, resources, terror tactics and drug consumption.
 

Mujahideen

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The years you speak of may be few or many. With enough desire, those years could end up being months. Either way, those delays and the issues that will result from them, if there are - should be in no way considered valuable enough to shed blood over.

And China knows this. They know if they were to prevent us having access to semiconductors, the war hawks would start chirping and/or we would eventually make our own or get it from somewhere else.

Like I said, China isn’t stupid enough to want to go to war with us when they can keep us sucking their tit and making them rich.
 

Unca Walt

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FM -- I would root for your take. If I could. I wish it was your way. Believe me, I'd prefer it. We only seem to disagree as to how long it would take our Olympic Tech Runners to get back in Olympic running shape after having both their legs and back broken.
 

DodgebyDave

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The taiwanese might have something to say about China

China's position is 5 year, 10 year, 500 year, 5000 years......Taiwan will return China. Time make no difference. China been around since long before white men were invented.

China be around long after white man go extinct

Except, white folks better at conquest than chin

Chuck Fina!
 

hammerhead

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Do what's stopping production here in the US?
 

Unca Walt

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Do what's stopping production here in the US?

The amount of capital required to build from scratch an advanced electronic tech infrastructure is huge. China got assists from the traitors by acquiring the latest and greatest designs, manufacturing equipment, and US dollars... and all China had to pay was enough for the "SanFran Nans" to have a few hundred million each in order to have US GOVERNMENT support and approval.

Next: I mentioned "build from scratch"... that's because of the theft of the DS/Dems, there has been a epochal change in the only companies that would stand a chance to get going like WWII - type urgency DO NOT EXIST in the form necessary any longer.

Case In Point: 1980 IBM 300,000+ American employees, production factories all over the US -- Absolute pinnacle of electronic design/production/sales infrastructure on earth. No employee had ever been laid off.

IBM 2020 A screen grab:

IBM is cutting ‘thousands’ of jobs across the US amid COVID-19 pandemic

There are no more factories in America. Americans working for IBM are simply not to be found. The corporation shipped out our technology and wealth to 170 other countries.
https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/ibm-statistics-facts/

Crikey... We have been de-nutted in technology.
 

Mujahideen

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Eventually we won’t even be able to criticize China.


I do give them credit. They are smart.
 

gnome

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The amount of capital required to build from scratch an advanced electronic tech infrastructure is huge. China got assists from the traitors by acquiring the latest and greatest designs, manufacturing equipment, and US dollars... and all China had to pay was enough for the "SanFran Nans" to have a few hundred million each in order to have US GOVERNMENT support and approval.

Next: I mentioned "build from scratch"... that's because of the theft of the DS/Dems, there has been a epochal change in the only companies that would stand a chance to get going like WWII - type urgency DO NOT EXIST in the form necessary any longer.

Case In Point: 1980 IBM 300,000+ American employees, production factories all over the US -- Absolute pinnacle of electronic design/production/sales infrastructure on earth. No employee had ever been laid off.

IBM 2020 A screen grab:

IBM is cutting ‘thousands’ of jobs across the US amid COVID-19 pandemic

There are no more factories in America. Americans working for IBM are simply not to be found. The corporation shipped out our technology and wealth to 170 other countries.
https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/ibm-statistics-facts/

Crikey... We have been de-nutted in technology.

IBM is a dinosaur by tech standards.
More relevant would be Intel, which recently announced it would focus only on designing chips and outsource manufacturing.
 

Ensoniq

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We’ve got enough problem without being the world’s police

I don’t want China to annex Taiwan into Chicomville but I wouldn’t spend a drop of blood to prevent it, regardless of what a prior neocon promised via treaty
 

hoarder

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For all of 2020, the USA govt and media
Neither of which even remotely represents the American people. That goes for our "Intelligence" agencies as well.
 

GOLDBRIX

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Due to the treason of Biden in his naked lust for riches, China has technology they would not have dreamed of without it being taken from Americans by that evil shit.
Actually this shit started under Slick Willie when a high tech, computerized, milling machine the military use to manufacture submarine silent props was approved for sale by Bill Clinton against State Dept. and Top military officials wishes.
S.W. used the excuse - we are so far ahead of them that that technology is out dated here.
Later on under Baby Bush Naval War games being held out in the Pacific w Allied Naval Forces. A Chi-Comm Submarine surface within point blank range of one of our aircraft carriers. No sonar in the entire armada heard it.
In 2010 (B.O. Admin) a KFMB News helicopter videoed a missile launch in So Cal waters. The missile and contrail were West Bound.
The Navy and other military branches said they had no test firings that day or the week.

I put these two incident together. As earlier The Chinese had deliberately exposed their copy of a US Stealth fighter to a US delegation over S.E. Asian Trade agreements. ( A big Dick Contest)
 

hoarder

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We have our time as an Empire, China wants its turn...
There is only one empire and it is neither US nor China, however this empire is likely to get the US and China into war if it can.