Why Trump's U.S. Debt 'Default' Isn’t as Insane as It Sounds

[michael59]

Valuing gold based on debt is a false premise as the debt is overvalued to begin with.

No one loaned us 19 trillion dollars worth of gold in the first place.

Yeah but the US Tresury stamps out a specie of gold coin which is denominated as $50, so in a sense the treasury is saying $50 = spot price of the day, so to me gold is relevant in this matter. But, maybe not, maybe some other fiat is better based than the mighty dollar, naw just kidding.

Yeah Muja, I found out the other day that the US Tresury has been stamping gold coin and was awww stuck as I never knew or I would have had some of those long ago......Now? Now I am on the hunt for the waskely things and I know right were they are at......Dammm, I justs gots to gets me somes.

 

[solarion]

You can also gather the treasury's proposed GSR from their silly "dollar" stamps since an SAE is stamped $1 and they're a full ounce of AG. So you have a GSR that is slightly greater than 50:1 according to the mint. This despite the fact that silver is being extracted from the Earth at a rate that is only 9.12 * that of gold extraction and silver reserves are supposedly only 9.46 * gold reserves. Something smells fishy.

Anyway back OT. Here's a fascinating piece by Bill Still on another option a potential president Trump could pursue. This option is not a new option as it has been tried before by CEOs of US Inc. Those executives tend to end up with bullet holes in their hides. Any president that attempts a solution that short circuits the money changers had better have his affairs in order before hand.

 

[Joe King]

Any president that attempts a solution that short circuits the money changers had better have his affairs in order before hand.

That's because they want the debt repaid via the Peoples sweat, not by hitting a button on a printing press and foregoing the actual work that's been borrowed against.

Borrowing from the future works by spending today, the nations future productive capacity. Similar as to when you might borrow against something.
When that future arrives, at least some of its production must be used to repay that potion of it that has already been spent. To do otherwise is to have your cake and eat it too. We already ate the futures cake, now when we see what we've done, we work to figure out a way to have a whole new fresh one waiting for us in the future when we actually get there.
...but without having to do any extra work. lol Good luck with that.


Edited to add: and nobody wants ABC cake, either.

 

[Joe King]

An elaborate Ponzi scheme!

The way it's run it is.
A multi-generational ponzi scheme. Because once a particular generation consumes more than it produces, and all succeeding ones do the same, it sets up a game whereby each generation pays the previous generations excesses without having been asked if they want to or not.

If only the People would have always been willing to tax themselves for the gov they wanted at the time, we wouldn't be in this mess. But nobody REALLY seems to actually give a F' about anyones future. I hear a lotta lip service about it though.

 

[Joe King]

the US Tresury stamps out a specie of gold coin which is denominated as $50, so in a sense the treasury is saying $50 = spot price of the day,

That's because the book value of gold in the gov's eyes is only $42.22
So if they're gonna make a gold coin that is legal tender and they put a free market value on it as a denomination, it would be as though the Emperor himself were running naked through the courtyard screaming, "look! the Emperor wears no clothes!"
No, everything must mesh in monetary fantasy land.

 

[solarion]

That's because they want the debt repaid via the Peoples sweat, not by hitting a button on a printing press and foregoing the actual work that's been borrowed against.

I'm sure most here understand, at least at a rudimentary level, how this scam works. The question is, how many (grand)parents will be willing to rob their own (grand)children and for how long?

 

[Joe King]

I'm sure most here understand, at least at a rudimentary level, how this scam works. The question is, how many (grand)parents will be willing to rob their own (grand)children and for how long?

Until it becomes painfully obvious to a sufficient amount of the People to actually want to do something about it.
Does that point come prior to the point of it all just stopping, or will they coincide? That is the million $ question, and we will eventually have an answer to it.

Edited to add: the People bellying up to the bar and actually doing something about it would also necessitate a means of paying the price to do so. Be it financially or otherwise. There's always a price and talk of trillion dollar coins and paper to pay for it will still come at a price of some sort. There are no free lunches. Well guess what? Your grandpa already ate yours.
...and we're eating our grand kids lunch, too.

Hey, anyone know what time DWTS is on?

 

[Joe King]

Also, the main problem with Bill Still's "solution" is that it literally puts the "money" creation machine fully in the hands of Congress and prez. The same over spending Congress's and Admins that got us into the mess to begin with. Like that'll work well. lol lol
Do you let your babies change their own diapers too? So you can then clean up the poo they've gotten everywhere?

 

[michael59]

That's because the book value of gold in the gov's eyes is only $42.22
So if they're gonna make a gold coin that is legal tender and they put a free market value on it as a denomination, it would be as though the Emperor himself were running naked through the courtyard screaming, "look! the Emperor wears no clothes!"
No, everything must mesh in monetary fantasy land.

42.22? 42 of what?

Now Joe there is a number followed by the word DOLLAR, now I would think that the coin was worth $50 and not a penny more or less, just saying.

 

[FunnyMoney]

Because they pay in gold, and in blood...

 

[Joe King]

42.22? 42 of what?

Now Joe there is a number followed by the word DOLLAR, now I would think that the coin was worth $50 and not a penny more or less, just saying.

What do you mean by, "42 of what?"? I put a $ (dollar) sign in front of it. What more did you want?
...and that's the govs "book value", not its real-World value. The two couldn't be more different. The book value is what the price is, by law. Unfortunately, they won't sell it to you at that price, but that's the last official gold price for which it was redeemable.

Here, read it for yourself.

Status Report of U.S. Government Gold Reserve
The Status Report of U.S. Government Gold Reserve (Gold Report):

• Reflects gold bullion and gold coins owned by the federal government
• Summarizes the fine troy ounces and the book value of gold held by various facilities
• Identifies the value of gold coins and bullion on display at Federal Reserve banks; coins and bullion in reserve at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York; and gold held by U.S. Mint facilities

The book value of gold is currently $42.2222 per troy ounce. The information used to compile this reporting is received from the U.S. Mint, Federal Reserve banks, and the Bureau of the Fiscal Service.

Current Report: April 29, 2016 <--- nice and fresh

Contacts:

If you have questions about this report, please call 202-874-9861. <---- feel free to call 'em. I'm sure they can explain it better than I can.


Or, look at the numbers here and do the math yourself.

 

[michael59]

Oh boy there is so much wrong with that, the above. First is see this:

• Identifies the value of gold coins and bullion on display at Federal Reserve banks; coins and bullion in reserve at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York; and gold held by U.S. Mint facilities

Then I see the c table sic: Federal Reserve Banks - display///337.434// /15,936.11

Now as the columns in the gaff are not delineated then I just don't know what it is all about, I definitely don't know what 337.434 is.

Then there is down at the bottom the note "Book Value of $291billion." So I looked and 13,452,810.543 and 261,498,926.23 is 274,951,736.764 and not 291Billion. Then there is that next column: 11Billion and 568 million and that ain't nowheres near 291Billion.

So? What am I to make of this? Look I was just looking for one simple number, just one and it ain't there.

Stamped coin is worth stamped value assigned to it.

Look Joe, I can go with reserved notes being bogus, I can go with the spot price of gold buy when a denomination is stamped on a coin then that is what it is. I mean what are the people in the future going to say about these coins when they get dug up? Same thing I am saying.

 

[michael59]

Oh yeah..."on display"....there is only one notation in that graph the uses displayed and it is at fr banks... I just don't know....just don't...

 

[Joe King]

Oh boy there is so much wrong with that, the above. First is see this:

Then I see the c table sic: Federal Reserve Banks - display///337.434// /15,936.11

Now as the columns in the gaff are not delineated then I just don't know what it is all about, I definitely don't know what 337.434 is.

Then there is down at the bottom the note "Book Value of $291billion." So I looked and 13,452,810.543 and 261,498,926.23 is 274,951,736.764 and not 291Billion. Then there is that next column: 11Billion and 568 million and that ain't nowheres near 291Billion.

So? What am I to make of this? Look I was just looking for one simple number, just one and it ain't there.

Stamped coin is worth stamped value assigned to it.

Look Joe, I can go with reserved notes being bogus, I can go with the spot price of gold buy when a denomination is stamped on a coin then that is what it is. I mean what are the people in the future going to say about these coins when they get dug up? Same thing I am saying.

Sorry if I blew your mind.

Ok. The $291billion is not book value, but market value based upon the London fix. That means the gold holdings are worth $291billion on the open market if sold today.
Edited to add: correction, that was the value if sold at the start of the fiscal year, not the current value of $334billion.

The book price of $11,041,059,957.47 is based upon the lawfully defined price of $42.22 per troy ounce. That was the amount in dollars accepted by the US gov from other governments in exchange for one oz of gold prior to Nixon's temporary suspension of convertibility in 1971.

I hope that clarifies things for you. Other than that, I'm not sure why you are confused?

 

[michael59]

Confused? Oh that's simpl. When I was young what I knew about the world was true. Then somewhere, somehow it changed and what I thought I knew I found out I don't and what I didn't know was true and now I come to DOLLAR vs Dollar. One gold one paper and yet to explain one the other must be used. I just don't know....I suppose the hidden agenda that is in plain sight is just not there, confused.

Oh yeah, the above paragraph is all about money/gold/value.....hell I don't even know what to call it because no one else does either, confused.

Edit for clarification: not saying you don't know, saying I don't know.

 

[Joe King]

When I was young what I knew about the world was true.

It probably wasn't even true then. It just seemed that way. This has been going on longer than I or you have been alive.
...and what you are referring to is the convoluted mess that's been created in order to keep everything revolving around the word, "dollar".

 

[michael59]

It probably wasn't even true then. It just seemed that way. This has been going on longer than I or you have been alive.
...and what you are referring to is the convoluted mess that's been created in order to keep everything revolving around the word, "dollar".

No now wait a bit cuz I thunk a thought 2day....

K, there b them 50 gold pieces,,,,,arrrghhhh matey...whatever....say you use designated $50 gold pieces to purchase. At spot you cover price but at tax you skip. Oh darn just driving the value down by using gold. Shame on us.....

 

[Joe King]

No now wait a bit cuz I thunk a thought 2day....

K, there b them 50 gold pieces,,,,,arrrghhhh matey...whatever....say you use designated $50 gold pieces to purchase. At spot you cover price but at tax you skip. Oh darn just driving the value down by using gold. Shame on us.....

Having a face value so much lower than actual value ensures they won't be spent as actual currency would be.

How would you feel if that same coin had a $2000 face value and was still legal tender? That's relatively close to the spread on the 5cent piece you might have in your pocket right now.

 

[michael59]

Having a face value so much lower than actual value ensures they won't be spent as actual currency would be.

How would you feel if that same coin had a $2000 face value and was still legal tender? That's relatively close to the spread on the 5cent piece you might have in your pocket right now.

Yeah but when it comes to value equivalents I exchange one coin that has $50 dollar printed on it and for tax purposes I can truthfully and honestly put down my tax rate applicable to 50 even if it did take 2000frn to get that coin. So I pay less taxes....it's ingenious, darn the gumbyment working against itself....outf'standing.

 

[solarion]

The problem is that if you ask a gumbymint stooge to define the word "dollar" you'll get every kind of circular logic and runaround stoopidity. "Duh, it's 100 cents!"

A dollar = 371.25 grains of silver. Since that's less silver than is contained in a "1 dollar" American Silver Eagle, I'd say it's a bargain.

 

[michael59]

I agree. Ummm I guess my quest has derailed the original topic. Wonder if I am going to get banned if I don't start a new thread specific to what we are conversing about? Hmmmm, darn.....Oh well the milk has been spilt I guess.

 

[Joe King]

The problem is that if you ask a gumbymint stooge to define the word "dollar" you'll get every kind of circular logic and runaround stoopidity. "Duh, it's 100 cents!"

A dollar = 371.25 grains of silver. Since that's less silver than is contained in a "1 dollar" American Silver Eagle, I'd say it's a bargain.

Yep, right now depending on which "dollar" you have and how you spend it, it could be worth $0.04, $0.11, $1.00, $10.16, $12.80, $16.50, or $25.00 (did I miss any?)