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Would a 45-70 round be considered an armor-piercing bullet?

Shortstack

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#1
I am asking because of the proposed new gun laws:

We're asking for a new, stronger ban on military-style assault weapons and high-capacity magazines that allow a shooter to fire dozens of bullets as quickly as he can pull a trigger. And we're asking Congress to help protect law enforcement by make it illegal for members of the public to possess armor-piercing bullets.
I am torn between the following two leverguns, chambered in the venerable 45-70

1. A historic or current replica of the Browing/Winchester 1886 platform (Last pic is the turnbull) http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/826
http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=34270&catid=19872

2. The Marlin 1885, likely the 1895 SBL (first pic) or an aftermarket takedown version (second and third pic)
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895SBL.asp
http://www.wildwestguns.com/
 

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TomD

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Would a 45-70 round be considered an armor-piercing bullet? No. AP bullets have a steel or other hard metal penetrator rather than a lead core.

I'm partial to the Marlin Guide Gun in either 45-70 or the very similar 450 Magnum round. The 450 is just a 45-70 loaded to higher pressures and with a belt added to keep people from chambering them in older 45-70 rifles, with disastrous results. Though you can reload 45-70's to 450 pressures, be very careful to only fire them in modern weapons like the Guide Gun.

I've got a friend with a Guide Gun in 450 and it's not something you'll shoot a lot for fun, the recoil is brutal. But if something big and dangerous has to be taken down right now, that's your weapon. If you reload, you can make some milder loads so you can get familiar with the weapon with a bit less punishment.
 

Rusty Shackelford

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So the 45/90 that I would shoot in my first muzzle loader is a killer (45 cal bullet over 90 gr of powder)? I found it pleasant to shoot as I do shooting my uncles 45/70.

Guess recoil is subjective.
 

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So the 45/90 that I would shoot in my first muzzle loader is a killer (45 cal bullet over 90 gr of powder)? I found it pleasant to shoot as I do shooting my uncles 45/70.

Guess recoil is subjective.
What gun weight? Guide Guns are very light. When you're pushing over 400grain bullets to over 2000 FPS in a 7 pound rifle, recoil energy is at .375 H&H Magnum levels, and that's stout. Not to retina detachment levels but not pleasant.
 

Shortstack

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So the 45/90 that I would shoot in my first muzzle loader is a killer (45 cal bullet over 90 gr of powder)? I found it pleasant to shoot as I do shooting my uncles 45/70.

Guess recoil is subjective.
Having never shot a 45-70 round, I can only go by what I read on the internet, and the conversation I just had with turnbull. For thier historic reproductions, what they do is order the raw parts from either the Italian company chiappa and polish and hand fit each piece, plus treat the metal and stocks

http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/826

What they told me was Chiappa was very late on fullfilling an order so they were also sourcing parts from Browning's "miroku" plant. Yes, the turnbull model is at leat 1k more than a factory fresh 1886 from the Miroku plant, but turnbull polished and hand fits each part, so that, according to turnbull, is your value added.

What they also told me is that many elect to have a shotgun style but end, as opposed to the historically accurate cresent shaped butt plate with the metal cap. So I can imagine that the cresent butt end, married to a metal cap, offers zero recoil protection, while a flat butt end, with a recoil decelorator pad, might calm things down a bit. But shooting the high pressure +p rounds from Garret for instance? Those loads would have "invigorating" recoil. But the Rhino, Grizz, or Elephant on the other end? Garret claims 6+ feet of penetration.

Why I want one? Well, my wife will not be freaked out with a lever gun, and I am assuming the neighbors will not be either. Being only 40 or so miles from the Sandy Hook massacre site, I have allready been labled the neighborhood gun nut, and two wives have forbid their children from playing with ours because of this. All because I showed their husbands my Bennelli M-2, with it's black tactical pistol grip (which I have since replaced with a regular stock that incorporates Bennelli's recoil absorbing system. BTW, there is a big diff in recoil between the plastic pistrol grip stock and Bennelli's recoil absorbing system on the conventional looking stock.

That all said, I had no problem shooting 60-80 slugs from the Bennelli from a bench rest (which makes felt recoil worse) using the hard plastic pistol grip. My sholder was a little sore for 24 hours after each session, but no black and blue marks or anything. So if I was fine with shooting slugs from a plastic stocked benelli, I have to think that the 45-70 would be about the same, unless I shoot the Garret Rhino +P monster rounds.
 

TomD

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What they also told me is that many elect to have a shotgun style but end, as opposed to the historically accurate cresent shaped butt plate with the metal cap. So I can imagine that the cresent butt end, married to a metal cap, offers zero recoil protection, while a flat butt end, with a recoil decelerator pad, might calm things down a bit.
Can you imagine shouldering the rifle quickly and getting a shot off with the point of the butt in your shoulder. I used to shoot a lot of skeet and every 100-200 or so shots that's just exactly what I'd do and it would hurt like crazy. And that was with a light target load. Get the recoil pad. IMHO

12 ga slug is 1 oz (about 440 grains) @ 1650 fps. That's close to equivalent to the 350 grains at 2100 fps from the hotter loads with 45-70. If you can live with lots of slugs from a bench, no problem with the 45-70.
 

Shortstack

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#9
Would a 45-70 round be considered an armor-piercing bullet? No. AP bullets have a steel or other hard metal penetrator rather than a lead core.

I'm partial to the Marlin Guide Gun in either 45-70 or the very similar 450 Magnum round. The 450 is just a 45-70 loaded to higher pressures and with a belt added to keep people from chambering them in older 45-70 rifles, with disastrous results. Though you can reload 45-70's to 450 pressures, be very careful to only fire them in modern weapons like the Guide Gun.

I've got a friend with a Guide Gun in 450 and it's not something you'll shoot a lot for fun, the recoil is brutal. But if something big and dangerous has to be taken down right now, that's your weapon. If you reload, you can make some milder loads so you can get familiar with the weapon with a bit less punishment.
The folks at Turnbull assured me that modern replica's of the 1886 could handle any 45-70 load that the Marlin 45-70 can shoot. Same action as the originals built in 1890, Chiappia and Miroku scanned each piece of the original and let the computer create an exact replica, except the modern steel used is much better than what they had circa 1890.

I do also like the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 - the SBL model. I could just buy that off the shelf and have a smith take it apart and tune/polish the gun. I do like what Wild West is doing, but am a little weary of a take down version of this weapon, even though I have seen nothing on the Marlin owners forum to indicate that the Wild West takedown is anything but the "dream version" of the Marlin guide gun. I have no interest in going bigger than the 45-70. I like the SBL's 6+1 round capacity, but not as much as the 9+1 I would get from the full sized 24 inch barreled turnbull 1886

http://www.gunblast.com/Marlin-1895SBL.htm
 

Argent Dragon

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#10
Would a 45-70 round be considered an armor-piercing bullet? No. AP bullets have a steel or other hard metal penetrator rather than a lead core.
TRUE, but the way these politicians draw up proposals, they'll probably try to include FMJ's as AP's ! :bear_blink:
 

Shortstack

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One more open question here. If Sandy Hook had not happened, I had my wife real close to allowing me to get an M-14. Since LRB is 50 miles away, I had planned on driving down and visiting them in person to order my M-14. Yes, I know LRB's are waayyy more than a fanstastically appointed Springfield armory M1a


but I would be getting only one of these, so the extra $$ would have been fine. But since me getting the LRB M-14 would now a divorce level event, I have to explore alternatives. I know there are many level gun calibers that shoot much easier, and are good for anything but a large bear (like the 30-30 for instance). Since magazine fed rifles (M-14 or anything magazine fed) are out, the closest thing I can get would be a high capacity lever rifle.

On a shot for shot basis, how does the 45-70 round stack up against a 308 winchester round coming from an M-14 or M1a? I suspect on deer sized game, the 308 winchester would be much more effective than the 45-70. But on large elk or bears? And there are lever guns that chamber the 308 winchester, so maybe I should be looking at those?

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/308MarlinExpress/338MXLR.asp

Also, if I purchased a true historic 1886 (not a modern replica), would this ever need to be registered?

Thanks guys.
 
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Shortstack

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And may I be totally honest about my question re the 45-70 vs the 308 winchester? I purchased a rifled slug barrel for my benelli M-2 so that I could shoot a slug up to 100 yards with decent accuracy. Best I can do is maybe 4 to 6 inch 3 shot groups from a benchrest - being honest here. I am trying to do my part, and have shot about 400 slugs so far (200 from the smooth and about 200 from the rifled slug barrel.

I know the 45-70 from a marlin guide gun can do less than 2 inch groups from 100 yards with a scope if I do my part. I was hoping the the Benelli M2 would be an all purpose weapon, with a smooth barrel and rifled slug barrel. But I am not sure about this now because I can't seem to get my slug shooting anywhere near a consistent 4 inch group at 100 yards.

If, during the SHTF, a gang of raiders/thugs attack, I want a round that will defeat the high tech body armor they may be wearing. And I say defeat because a rifled 12 gauge slug would collapse the chest cavity of the thug wearing body armor, if you can score a hit. But whatever the 12 gauge slug does, I think 45-70 round would best it, especially if using one of the monster 540 grain garret slugs - then we are talking 2x to 3x vs. a slug coming from my benelli. In both cases, the body armor would remain intact. But what about the body underneath?

Also, it is not beyond the realm that I may retire in a few years. My Canadian wife is warming to the idea of relocating from suberbia to remote Alberta or BC (plus my kids have canadian passports). Up there, your might actually need a 45-70 for big bear.
 

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#13
I've shot a 45-70 in a Trapdoor Springfield carbine and thought I was dying for 3 days. I've shot a Winchester .458 in lever action and it was pleasant. Shoot it first.
 

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#14
If you buy a Marlin, buy one of the older ones because Marlin got bought out a few years ago by some Wall Street Jews who downgraded the quality of their new rifles. Baited by stainless steel, I got bought one of the newer Marlins, much to my dismay because of jamming problems. Internal parts are MIM (metal injection molded) now.
 

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#15
One more open question here. If Sandy Hook had not happened, I had my wife real close to allowing me to get an M-14. Since LRB is 50 miles away, I had planned on driving down and visiting them in person to order my M-14. Yes, I know LRB's are waayyy more than a fanstastically appointed Springfield armory M1a
Geez dude, your wife says what firearms you can buy? Tsk, tsk, grow a pair, my man. Anyway, I like your choices in firearms, I'm sure you'll be happy with a .45-70, but it never could be an AP round, waaay too slow. However, it will be a very effective man-stopper.
 

Shortstack

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If you buy a Marlin, buy one of the older ones because Marlin got bought out a few years ago by some Wall Street Jews who downgraded the quality of their new rifles. Baited by stainless steel, I got bought one of the newer Marlins, much to my dismay because of jamming problems. Internal parts are MIM (metal injection molded) now.
Marlin was part of the Cerberus hedge fund deal, so replace "Jews" with "Jerks" so that it reads "a few years ago by some Wall Street Jerks". Cerberus then closed down the New Haven based Marlin factory and moved manufacturing to the Remington plant in upstate New York.

The Marlins' now made by Remington are affectionatly known as "Remlins". This has been discussed and disected on the Marlin owners forum for quite some time. I don't remember seeing anything about switching to MIM parts, and how this ruined the product. But I was not looking for that, so thanks for the heads up. The concensus on that forum is that shoddy workmanship on the first rifles coming out of the Remington plant have been ironed out for the most part. Many on that forum say that Remlins are just as good as the Marlins made in New Haven ever were now. One guy, who has 3 of the 1885 guide guns (two older Marlins and one Remlin) says is Remlin is the best of the bunch. Others back him up, while others grumble about the fit and finish problems.

Frankly, if this was not an issue, I would go with the SBL guide gun and be done. I threw the 1886 in the mix because of this issue, but the more I read on the Marlin Owners Forum, the less I am worried about purchasing a new "Remlin"
 

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#17
I have the Marlin 1895 Guide gun in 45-70 Gov't. If you hold the firearm tighter than you would hold your girlfriend (or wife) then the kick is no worse than a slug out of a 12ga.

A 500 grain 45-70 Gov't will stop anything, penetration or not. The kinetic mass itself is the killer. One of the gun magazines (Shooting Times?) had a test a few years ago involving a 500 grain 45-70 Gov't that did not penetrate a ballistic vest with ceramic plates but the impact would have been lethal to the vest wearer.

Pick the rifle that feels the most comfortable to you.
 

TomD

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#18
The main difference between a 45-70 and virtually any other modern large capacity rifle round and rifle combo is effective distance. A lever action rifle in 45-70 will have round nosed bullets limited to around 2000 fps. Reality is that 250 yards would be pushing the limits of that combo but it would be extraordinarily deadly within that range. A very good bolt gun in something like .300 SWM (or any number of others) would work at up to 600-700-800 yards. I shoot competitions with a bolt gun at 1000 yards.
 

Shortstack

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#19
I have the Marlin 1895 Guide gun in 45-70 Gov't. If you hold the firearm tighter than you would hold your girlfriend (or wife) then the kick is no worse than a slug out of a 12ga.

A 500 grain 45-70 Gov't will stop anything, penetration or not. The kinetic mass itself is the killer. One of the gun magazines (Shooting Times?) had a test a few years ago involving a 500 grain 45-70 Gov't that did not penetrate a ballistic vest with ceramic plates but the impact would have been lethal to the vest wearer.

Pick the rifle that feels the most comfortable to you.
I will tell you, if my wife gave me the green light on the LRB M-14 than I would hold her real tight. But as I said, we are not far from the Sandy Hook massacre, and the closer you get, the more people get cagey about assualt rifles. I showed my Benelli M-2 to a few of the fathers last time we hosted a play group. One of them saw the pistol grip and internalized "danger will robinson, crazy neighbor has assault rifle". He then reported this to his wife, who is now spearheading a campain to kick our kids out of the neighborhood playgroup entirely.

Plus my wife is a liberal Canadian, which is more liberal than Nancy Pelosi could ever hope to be. Seriously, my wife wanted NO guns in the house, she grudgingly accepted the Benelli and a S&W model 27 (357 mag). She does not know about my Rohrbaugh though. They make great weapons on Long Island, LRB, Rohrbaugh, and I think I am missing one or two.

BTW, do you have a Marlin made in New Haven, or a Remlin made by Remington in New York? If an original Marlin, do you have the ported barrel?
 

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TomD

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I will tell you, if my wife gave me the green light on the LRB M-14 than I would hold her real tight. But as I said, we are not far from the Sandy Hook massacre, and the closer you get, the more people get cagey about assault rifles. I showed my Benelli M-2 to a few of the fathers last time we hosted a play group. One of them saw the pistol grip and internalized "danger will robinson, crazy neighbor has assault rifle". He then reported this to his wife, who is now spearheading a complain to kick our kids out of the neighborhood playgroup entirely.

Plus my wife is a liberal Canadian, which is more liberal than Nancy Pelosi could ever hope to be. Seriously, my wife wanted NO guns in the house, she grudgingly accepted the Benelli and a S&W model 27 (357 mag). She does not know about my Rohrbaugh though. They make great weapons on Long Island, LRB, Rohrbaugh, and I think I am missing one or two.

BTW, do you have a Marlin made in New Haven, or a Remlin made by Remington in New York? If an original Marlin, do you have the ported barrel?
Come to the South, I wonder if we're even in the same country. Everyone here is armed and damned proud of it. Your neighbors would be ostracized down here. My (current) wife of 14 years is an ex-liberal from the MD area who later told me that she was sick to her stomach after she first saw some of my guns. She was an enthusiastic pistol target shooter within a year.
 
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#21
If you buy a Marlin, buy one of the older ones because Marlin got bought out a few years ago by some Wall Street Jews who downgraded the quality of their new rifles. Baited by stainless steel, I got bought one of the newer Marlins, much to my dismay because of jamming problems. Internal parts are MIM (metal injection molded) now.
I've heard of problems with the newer guide guns. I bought my 1895gs guide gun before the newer ones came out. Built in new haven and stainless. No problems at all, an extremely well build rifle.

The recoil from the 45-70 is manageable. As posted, keep it tight to your shoulder. However range from the 45-70 slugs, accuracy goes down significantly past 100 yards. The guide gun is best within 100 yards, imo.
 

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However range from the 45-70 slugs, accuracy goes down significantly past 100 yards. The guide gun is best within 100 yards, imo.
I've never fired a 45-70. I have a 18" smooth barrel with rifle sights for my 12 gauge Remington 870 and it's reasonably accurate at 100 yards with slugs. If someone already has a shotgun, slugs can fill a void without investing in another rifle.
 

oldgaranddad

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I will tell you, if my wife gave me the green light on the LRB M-14 than I would hold her real tight. But as I said, we are not far from the Sandy Hook massacre, and the closer you get, the more people get cagey about assualt rifles. I showed my Benelli M-2 to a few of the fathers last time we hosted a play group. One of them saw the pistol grip and internalized "danger will robinson, crazy neighbor has assault rifle". He then reported this to his wife, who is now spearheading a campain to kick our kids out of the neighborhood playgroup entirely.

Plus my wife is a liberal Canadian, which is more liberal than Nancy Pelosi could ever hope to be. Seriously, my wife wanted NO guns in the house, she grudgingly accepted the Benelli and a S&W model 27 (357 mag). She does not know about my Rohrbaugh though. They make great weapons on Long Island, LRB, Rohrbaugh, and I think I am missing one or two.

BTW, do you have a Marlin made in New Haven, or a Remlin made by Remington in New York? If an original Marlin, do you have the ported barrel?
Shortstack, We will have to get together one day at the range. I have Lou's first production M25 (with the receipt signed by Lou attesting to it). For those of you who don't know the LRB M25 (http://lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html) is the Picatinny (M1913) rail integrated model. I have met the Rohrbaugh brothers at the range from time to time. Their pistol is on my buy list when I get some fun money. Nice little pocket pistols. I had a chance to shoot a couple of their prototypes at the range.

My Marlin is not ported but was made in New Haven. I've toyed with getting it ported but then again it is on the list along with the Rohrbaugh.
 

Shortstack

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#24
Shortstack, We will have to get together one day at the range. I have Lou's first production M25 (with the receipt signed by Lou attesting to it). For those of you who don't know the LRB M25 (http://lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html) is the Picatinny (M1913) rail integrated model. I have met the Rohrbaugh brothers at the range from time to time. Their pistol is on my buy list when I get some fun money. Nice little pocket pistols. I had a chance to shoot a couple of their prototypes at the range.

My Marlin is not ported but was made in New Haven. I've toyed with getting it ported but then again it is on the list along with the Rohrbaugh.
Wow, that is impressive on the M25. My Rorhbaugh is one of about 100 that Carl sent to to Robar to receive NP3 inside and out. These 100 units were called "Robar" R9's and are extra smooth in operation, as NP3 will do for any firearm. I would like to shoot some time, will let you shoot my Rohrbaugh if you let me shoot your 45-70 Marlin. Lets talk about meetinf up later, will be very busy for the next week or so.

I like the 45-70 because it will penetrate earth more than other rounds. Which is important because quickie is likely lying in wait for me, safely buried in a mylar lined hole in the woods out back of my house.